Mar 0:00
I got the feedback only a couple of years ago that somebody said, you know, people in stories, they like having characters that they can relate to. Like, that's something people look for, not on my radar, not on my list of, isn't a list, yeah, just not really in my periphery. Then I'm like, That's and again, I hear that information of you know, people like to have a character they can relate to. I think, okay, and then I don't change what I'm doing with my writing.
Josh Lavine 0:29
Welcome to another episode of what it's like to view. I'm Josh Lavon, your host, and on this show, I interview accurately typed guests about their experience as their Enneagram type. Today, my guest is Mar who is a self pres sexual seven with a six wing, 794, tri fix. Mara is fascinating. She we talk a lot about her social blindness and how it shows up for her, both in childhood and now as holding different baseline assumptions about how we're going to be engaging in interaction than the vast majority of people around her, and how that got her into trouble as a kid, and also how she deals with it now as an adult, we also talk about how, as a core seven, Mara is an assertive type and has visions of what will be optimally nourishing for her, and has a sense of like self responsibility, or a sense of, I am going to make this happen for myself, because no one else will. But also being 794, as a tri fix, lacking a kind of pragmatism that could manifest a lot of her more eccentric visions, there's also a really good exploration about how type seven views the past as a burden, how they want to be free to meet the moment in a spontaneous, fresh way, and how memories or past experiences that I've taste tested and decided aren't for me kind of trail behind me as a kind of psychological weight that I wish I could be free of, and what it takes to become present and actually let that go. We had a really profound kind of moment of recognizing that was going on and also something deep about the seven four stem contradiction or tension, where type four is especially four and five is unflinchingly looking in the face of something That's tragic or kind of brutal or grotesque and sad and having a reverence for the beauty of that, but also the seven tendency to kind of be flippant about it, or take a comedic approach to it, and just how that lives in Mars. Writing Mars a beautiful writer, and there'll be links in the show notes to some of her writing, which you might want to check out before you even watch this, so you have a sense of what we're talking about, because we do talk about some of her pieces in this episode, but just how that how that tension lives in her writing, and how it's kind of a theme that consciously or unconsciously, she continues to find ways to express, both in the way that she lives her life and also in what she explores in her art. So lots of good stuff here. If you would like to learn more about the Enneagram or what does self press sexual mean? What is a seven? What is 974? Trifecta, et cetera. How to make sense of it all, I recommend you go check us out at the Enneagram school.com. There's plenty of information there, as well as our intro course, where we lay out all the basic concepts of what makes the Enneagram. The Enneagram All right. Without further ado, I'm very excited for you to learn from Mar I'd like to start with a question, Are you are you aware? Or how long have you held an awareness that whether or not you know your Enneagram typing, that there are aspects of like your your nervous system, the way you're structured your personality, that are kind of different from the kind of average mold of A person.
Mar 3:56
Yeah, I think that in general, growing, growing up, I think there's, there's a certain kind of, like, weird way that I would feel it, that I think that, in general, is always very self contained, paying attention to, like, what is going on in my own sort of sphere, what I am getting from any particular situation, that it wasn't until I would get certain kinds of feedback that just wouldn't make sense to me, or a lot of the time I would have people kind of assuming my motives around things that would just kind of be like, would blindside me, I think in a certain way that I would get an impression of, like, there's, there's something that I'm doing that's not, I don't, I don't want to say, like, baseline, i. That's not really like the expectation. And then a lot of the time the some of the feedback I would get was negative, and is that I was doing it on on purpose to, you know, kind of like, push on something, or to be a certain way, or I got a lot of feedback as a kid that I was very annoying. That to me, it's like I I didn't realize I was being annoying. I just thought I was having a good time. I thought it was just having fun, having just like the kind of interaction that I think we should be having, not paying attention to. That's not what's going on in the room right now. That's not people don't appreciate and then I would get kind of, yeah, like, like, negative, negative response, you know, from people, negative reaction from people, lot of the time that I didn't know, yeah, I didn't know what that was, and it kind of would always be upsetting. But again, then I am just going to keep doing things the way that I'm doing them. Like, there isn't going to be a whole lot of adjustment around like, oh, you know, these people decided that they, you know, that I'm being annoying. I'm being, I would get dinged a lot for kind of being an attention whore, you know, in a certain way that I don't know how else to be. I don't know what you want me to do differently here, like, then you should, if you, if you're mad at me for being an attention whore, then you should work harder to be one. If that's what you're you're jealous about, you know, that kind of a thing, okay,
Josh Lavine 6:38
yeah, okay, right. So right off the bat, there's, I'll just pull us some themes here, the social blind thing of not, I don't know you could say not reading the room, or not holding the same baseline assumptions about how this interaction is going to go with the majority of other people, because we live in a, for The most part, not social, blind world. Whether people are social, self press or self press, social. That, to me, is just really interesting. And I'm curious about your experience growing up and then learning that you're social, blind through the lens of the Enneagram, and what that opened up for you in terms of awareness. But then the other thing is the seven stuff that you're talking about, which is kind of the non adaptiveness to other people's expectations, the you're getting this feedback that you're being sort of obnoxious, and your your reflex is to be like, Okay, well, are you maybe you're jealous or or I'm not really going to do the thing you're wanting me to do. I'm just going to keep doing this thing that I am and especially with the seven and four fix in your typing both kind of Yeah, you could say not adaptive, so I'll just Yeah. So that's the that, that's the way to frame everything enneagramically. So where do you go
Mar 7:57
with that? Well, when I was still kind of on my own trying to figure out what type I was. I actually originally had thought that I was a social Dom, just because there's a certain way that I think getting that feedback so much over time of you know, Mar you're not you're not responding to this correctly. You're not behaving or or, yeah, just not acting in accordance. That, you know, there's a way, I think I made a note of it in some certain kind of a way that there's the to me that the blindness around the social instinct. Feels a lot just like there's no nuance there. There's no sense of like you enter a room and I'm not looking at who's who to who. How should I be presenting myself to people you know, in terms of how we relate? Like, if you you know, walk into a place, and to me, the most interesting person there is, like the, you know, a professor of something I'm not thinking about how or a professor I should pay them this respect, like that sort of, it gets squished down. So I think that there's a way, when I was trying to figure out what exactly Typologically is going on. I don't know if it also has to do with being, like, a fear type or not, but in general, just the sense of, like, I know something's happening and I have no idea what it is. And generally, yes, like, the the attitude towards it, then is, and it's a huge pain in the ass, and I'm just going to not worry about it. But at other times, it is kind of like, and I know I should be pretty, you know, concerned about this. I should be on top of this that for me, then hearing I was social blind, I'm like, Okay, I have to. To look the entire typing in general, my attitude is like, okay, like, yeah, I have to have to figure out what this is specifically to me. Like, what each of these facets means to me. That with social blind, there's definitely a way now when I'm running into things in life, I can sort of realize that that's what's going on. I can understand, like, one of the big things recently, I think it's social blind, and I think it's for fix that. I've really been trying to, trying to really pay attention to and work with, is that how? And I think, too, it's part of what caused the problem growing up, that people would think I was being a certain way on purpose, like this was a reaction to them, was that not really looking for anything really to mirror me, like in in the world, like going through, including, like my family, including just, you know, what's out there, in general, not really feeling like there's anything that, I think part of the assumption that I had is that everyone Is, is kind of mirroring themselves, like everybody is doing this, you know, self contained. I find things that I reflect back to myself, and then, you know, where there's no attention to where does that place kind of a thing that going through things now in life, I'm kind of trying to see, like, where am I just not even allowing myself to feel like mirrored or connected to people, because I'm kind of approaching things from a place of, you're doing your thing over there, I'm doing my thing over here, and there's, there's no connectivity. You know, in a certain way, it's just like, yes, yes. It's, I don't know if that's your question, if that made any that made any sense at all, that's what came that's
Josh Lavine 12:04
okay. No, that was really good. Actually, I'm fascinated by the answer, because it's the, it's two pieces of it. There's the the people that you're running into that are frustrated with you and projecting onto you that you're doing something on purpose. That's sort of like from their paradigm, like, well, I'm taking into account the social context and how one is supposed to be operating here, and how, what is appropriate to do or not to in this social context, and you're deliberately not doing that. That would be their projection on you, right, right? Because obviously you're holding this awareness like I am. Is their projection. And if you're not doing that thing, that means you have to, it has to be on purpose. That would be kind of like you could social attachment point of view. You might say crazy. You could say,
Mar 12:52
Yeah, crazy, crazy to me, at least they sound crazy answers that I would get then to for things like when I started getting into like, trouble in school and stuff when I was in like, like middle school. My sister is a very, very She's very smart, very studious, really amazing person that when I started getting into trouble, some of the, one of the pieces of feedback that I got from my mother was just that you're just doing this to be different than your sister, which was something that was not, not even in my conscious awareness at all, like, whatsoever. So then to like, how the thing is, then to me with, with that kind of a comment, it's like, what do I even do with that? Like, how do I even tell you that that's not what's happening,
Josh Lavine 13:43
because the baseline assumption of where that's coming from is so fundamentally different from where you're like, I'm not even holding a sense of trying comparing myself against my sister in the first place would be a way to put it, yeah,
Mar 13:55
like, like, that's it's not on my mind. Like, I think of her. She's my sister, and I love her. And again, there's no, none of this nuance that's going on around like, oh, well, she's a smart, you know, person, and these because we both went, you know, went to the same school, so the teachers must be thinking this and that, and it's just like, that's, it's not, it's not part of the equation. Yeah,
Josh Lavine 14:15
I just love to me, okay, just right there. It's just, so it's so stark, the contrast between how your inner world operates and how you could say someone with social and their stacking operates. But also your point about the for fix is really powerful too, because it's it's both social blind, so not not tracking how sort of I don't know who I am in relation to you, and who you are in relation to me, and who these people are in relation to each other.
Speaker 1 14:47
So like attachment types will will hold a
Josh Lavine 14:54
let's see, a kind of unconscious psychological project to find themselves. To individuate and to, finally, once and for all, know who they are, to unenmesh themselves from the social milieu and just and figure out, this is who I am. This is my flavor. Whereas, if you have a for fix, you're coming from the point of view of I'm already a distinct person. I don't have to find my flavor and the way I'm already over certain of my flavor, but I am looking for things that resonate with me at the level of my selfhood, right? Like when I interact with most stuff in the world, it feels like this isn't me, This isn't me, This isn't me. And so when I find something that does resonate, it's like this actually precious thing that resonates with something that I know to be myself already, but this idea that you would be pushing off, like, seeing someone and being like, Oh, I don't want to be that. I want to be something different from that as a deliberate individuation mechanism, that's like, not at all, the four paradigm, you know, that's like a whole, that's an attachment thing. Yeah, yeah. I wanted to also read something that you wrote regarding social blind. So regarding social you said, usually to me, it's a waste of effort and something I actively have to carve out time for. But I'm also aware that underneath the neutrality is fear. Because I know something is happening out there, but I don't know what it is. I know it can negatively impact my plans, my self preservation, whatever, but there is so little nuance. I just assume it can't be good. I think some of the lack of airtime given to social comes from an understanding that it's so underdeveloped and will just be a drag on what I actually want to do. I have a lot of animosity around how it seems necessary to get what I want in life.
Mar 16:41
Yeah, yeah, I have a little example of that. If you're if you're curious, that'd be great. So, you know, my big thing that I really care about in this world is writing, and especially the way that the writing sphere, you know, whatever you want to call it is now, is really big on, you know, connections. Who do you know? What are you a part of having that desire and that sort of ability to network like the networking aspect, that's something that I really I just like I would have. I recently just got rid of social media and stuff because it wasn't doing anything for me. I didn't feel like doing it anymore. But doing it anymore. And one of the things was the idea that I had about, you know, making, making Instagram, putting writing on there, doing all this stuff, is, it's self promotional. So it's, like, very self interested. But then also, to the the idea that I had was, oh, you know, I'd like, what I thought I wanted was I'd like people to reach out to me, and then I can just have all of these, you know, like access points to be like a, you know, the distinctness of what you're doing that, then people are looking for that, right? And just putting that out there. When I actually started to have people like, contact me and like, want to work on things, collaborate on stuff, I had to the one person at least. I had to set a timer for an hour that then I said, once the hour is over, I will be done having to interact with this person like, you know, some similar with it, with the typing video, that's like, I didn't with the typing video. I'm like, I hate being on camera, um, and I'll just set a timer. What is it like? 10 minutes, that's how long the video has to be. Get it done. It's done. Go back to, you know, doing something I actually want to be doing, paying attention to what I want to be paying attention to that I can as an example there it's like I can understand how important it is to make, you know, connections with with other writers, with you know, publishers with you know, different people actually doing it is a slog for me, like it's I would again, I'd have set a timer. I have one hour, once the hour is over,
Mar 19:29
send the email. It's done, it's finished. Don't have to think about it anymore. But I do, I do think it's a genuine thing where, in general, it's kind of, you can be dismissive towards, you know, whatever your blind spot is. But again, I don't know if it's altered by whatever you know center you're you're coming from more but for me, it's because fearfully, I know that this is a huge important piece of being a human being to be. Connective and to really be interactive and to mirror other people and allow that me, you know, to be mirrored by other people as well, which is a lot of what you know, what happened is people would read whatever I was writing and then try to mirror back to me what it was they were seeing. And I'm kind of like, Oh, that's great. That's nice through gritted teeth, yeah, one two, because the people want to compare. Like, I would get people comparing my stuff to David Lynch. And like, Well, I'm not David Lynch. Like, if anything, it's just don't, don't do that, that it, yeah, it's, I think, a big piece
Josh Lavine 20:39
of that for fixed misattunement thing, just Yeah. It's
Mar 20:44
kind of, I don't know, like I just Yeah. It's just a feeling of, I know this is and depending, too, on what kind of mood, what kind of what what side of the bed you wake up on, how, how much the word animosity you can kind of feel towards, towards that that, you know, it's putting too I don't think there's too much energy that goes into it, because it is still a blind spot. You know that it's not like then sitting and scheming and thinking about, like, oh, this awful, rotten, terrible world with all the awful, rotten, terrible people in it, it's more just like, for me, it comes up then it's like a frustration around self pressed DOM. It's like, you know, you have the ways that you want to with your skills or with your, you know, your lifestyle, whatever it might be, you know, do things in this world, and it just feels like this huge time suck and this huge just for me, it's always like my attention of where I have to put my attention on this right now. And it doesn't, it doesn't feel like it fills the cup at all. It just feels like, you know, the cup with the hole at the bottom, and it's just going through and it's like, I could be putting my attention onto something else. I could be doing something else, and instead, I'm having to sit here and
Josh Lavine 22:15
be the other thing. Like, what's the something else that you would rather be doing? Oh,
Mar 22:19
like, I love to be working on stuff. I love to be learning about random things. I just in general, hopscotch and around doing, doing whatever kind of strikes your fancy.
Speaker 1 22:32
You know, yeah, yeah. I
Josh Lavine 22:39
just want to comment on this like the begrudging toil of attending to your blind spot instinct. It's like, I know this is important. I know it potentially could be nice if I did this or in a roundabout in a roundabout way, it would fulfill something that I'm missing in my life. But it just feels exhausting, and I feel competent at it. It feels just annoying to have to do it, and the payoff is, like, too far away. And I'm wondering too about if there's a seven. Do you relate to the term instant gratification seeking as a seven? You do? Yeah, because that's I was wondering about that too, because, like for me as a core three sexual blind like, there have been periods of life where I kind of embarrassed me say, but it's like, as I'm like, Okay, I'm, I'm gonna work on this, you know, I'm gonna work on my sexual blind spot, right? Here we go. You know, we're all in, like, get my get myself in gear, and I study it. Or I'm like, Okay, I'm gonna today, I'm gonna embody this quality, or something like that, take a kind of competence, assertive approach to this. Like, I'm gonna do it, yeah, yeah. And there's there. Like, when I get myself there, there's a kind of getting over this inner obstacle of, like, I really, I don't know all the inner obstacles around, like feeling incompetent at this, feeling like this is a distraction from advancing myself in my career, my social pursuits, or whatever. But I kind of do it, and have some kind of, I don't know, an engine that has at least some amount of fuel in the tank before I burn out, you know? But with seven, with core seven, what I'm wondering about is, like that fuel, or the engine. The engine is there as an assertive type, but the the pull towards something that's more alluring right now and would be more instantly gratifying is a lot stronger, it seems. Yeah, so the attention, yeah, you know, I'm saying, Does that make sense?
Mar 24:43
I think so. If I'm yeah, if I'm understanding and not just putting my own little little twist on it, that, yeah, yeah, no, I think it's definitely like, hypothetically, the self press should help and, you know, not. Mine, I think does have a way of, like, you know, working, working towards something, yeah, yeah. But I do think it is, it's, it's part of, at least to me, what, what has been more recent revelations, let's say around the way that I am doing seven things that I didn't really think I was doing. And it comes from, like, comes from like, well, I'm the exception to this thing. It's like, yes, yes. Everybody else has to, you know, sit and develop the skill or sit and, you know, the the way to build, you know, something is to put, you know, that attention, the time and the certain thing for a future. You well roundedness, I guess, is like, but no, I'm the exception that I get to do the thing that feels good right now and not have any consequences. And I'll have to worry about, you know, that I'm, I'm actually just kind of, you know, like pissing in the wind in a certain way, you know, not really being being committed and being competent in that way too. It's, it's like a I'm exceptional, so I don't need to use any kind of, like a competence or something like that, that, yeah, I think that there's a way that you have the future idea of how this thing is going to be. And you don't think that you're required to put off what feels really like, yeah, gratifying at this particular moment in order to achieve that. It's like you get to, I get to still be, you know, stomp my feet, and be, as you know, immature or self indulgent or whatever, as you'd like to be, and not pay for that, you know, down down the line. I don't know if that that correlates what you're saying.
Josh Lavine 26:52
Yeah, no, that was excellent. Yeah, okay. I want to zoom back out and go back to your childhood for a little bit. And I want to talk about the story that you shared with wanting a puppy.
Mar 27:05
Yes, you know, I think, like a lot of kids, you know, you want a specific, you know, animal or something like that, that you may or may not be allowed to have. So, you know, being a kid the original, the original kind of focus point was kitten that I was going to get a kitten. I was going to acquire a kitten because I had, you know, the idea of being me and a kitten. And, you know, whatever else that in that situation, I was still young enough. I believed in Santa Claus and I my mother was away. She was taking my sister to the bus to go to school, and I called in live, like, I don't know if I how I found the channel was a live call in show for call Santa Claus and tell them what you want for Christmas. And I just already kind of knew at this point, like I had an understanding of I'm not going to be but these parents that I have here, they're not going to oblige like they're not going to provide the object of desire, so I better go straight to the source, cut out the middleman, and called Santa Claus TV. He said, You know, you better bring me a kitten, whatever I said at the time. And it was while I was live, you know, on on air, I would, you know, I wouldn't have been berating Santa, but telling him, like, you better pay up that. You know, my mom came back and hopped the phone. I got in trouble for that one. So, you know, that was, yeah, I was littler a couple years later. At some point, I have shifted to a very specific kind of dog that I want. It wasn't just doggy, you know, and just, don't just want a puppy. I wanted a I was very into dachshunds at the time. So it's a miniature dachshund. It has long hair, cream colored, very, you know, specific, expensive animal that I was looking to get. And I still think there was, I don't know if it's like a six wing kind of a thing, still like an appeal to the authority of Let me prove to you that I know exactly how much it's going to cost, because that's, you know, that was the answers that you would get is like, oh, it's going to be expensive and, oh, you know, you won't take care of it. So I made up a whole sheet. Here's how much it will cost to acquire the dog. Here's how much it'll cost to probably already would have been neutered, but to, you know, feed it every week, all, all of this different stuff. List, listing it, I'm well aware, you know, I have the knowledge of the responsibility of dog ownership. Still was a no, wasn't going to happen. So I would stay over with my grandmother's. I've, you know, my two grandmothers pretty often, and they would both let me use their computers to just, you know, play games, do whatever. And I would find dachshund breeders. And. Um, that, you know, some of these dogs would sell back then for, like, $2,000 a pop. And I would find the docks and breeders, see, you know, like the new litters of puppies that they would take little pictures of all of them, and I would write to them and say, hello. I would like, I would like to buy one of your dogs. Could you please hold, because you place them on hold for when they're old enough then to be, you know, purchased, like, put, put your name in for them to hold the dog for you. So, using my grandmother's email, I would just so they thought Nancy was, you know, sending them all these, all these requests to hold their puppies for them. And I, I don't know what my end goal was here, because I did not have $2,000 you know, I wasn't gonna try and get my grandma. I mean, unless maybe that was my plot. It's long ago at this point to remember, maybe Nancy will pay for who knows that? Uh, eventually the breeders started emailing her back and saying, Hey, we have these puppies. Would you like to? Would you still like to buy these dogs? And she had to, she had to email them then and tell them, this was my, you know how old, eight to 10 year old granddaughter who was trying to scam me out of puppies? There's, I'm not buying your dog, sorry. And I got in some trouble for that. Could think probably computer privilege is taken away. You
Josh Lavine 31:26
know, I love that story. There's so much about that. I mean that. So first of all, it's like, I agree with your six wing assessment. It's like this, you're you're anticipating the potential objections, and you're demonstrating your responsibility and your awareness of, yeah, I know you're gonna say this, but actually, I've already thought that through. And here's my spreadsheet that I can I can tell you the costs and know exactly what it's going to take to take care of a dog. And then when you get the No, this is where the seven is, you just, you just do it anyway. You know, you you take matters into your own hands. I'm going to get what I want, and in this kind of secretive I'm Commander in my grandma's computer, I'm gonna do it this way, but also with the seven kind of the fantasy thing, of like, I don't know how this is gonna actually come happen. I don't know where I'm gonna get $2,000 but I'm gonna just, I'm gonna just assert myself to, I don't know, get farther along the path towards this goal, you know, towards this thing that I want, without really knowing how it's actually going to happen, specifically
Mar 32:26
something good, you know, there has to be some kind of a miracle, you know, something something amazing will make, you know, this, this happen. It'll make the two and two come together and make my dream come true for me, if you just put it out there, you know, something good will will occur. That's,
Josh Lavine 32:43
that's so interesting, because there's so many like, with your for fix, there is such a, like, a willingness to go to the negative territory, you know, and to be, I don't know, resigned or judgmental or, I don't know, there's like things that we that were coming out in your typing interview, for example, where it's just this easefulness With talking, like, when you saw it, the question was about your pet peeves, and you said, people whisper like, yes, nothing you say is unimportant. Yes, you're you look like a five year old. Actually, that's an insult to five year olds. And so there's this, there's this just free willingness to just do that kind of a thing, right? But the core seven, I would call it like a hope or optimism, or a sense that, that fantasy sense that, like, if I just put this wish out there, it might, might manifest itself and come true,
Mar 33:42
yeah, yeah. I think there's, at least, to me, there's a certain way that you know, like, I think you can be, you know, like criticisms over whispering that to me, I forgot about that. I forgot about my typing videos long time ago, but that, yeah, in general, it's just like, a lot of things are just very annoying and shitty and, you know, worth critiquing. But yeah, I think that there is a way that if you don't try and make things happen, like, you know, getting a dog, or, you know, going after, whatever particular thing it might be that you're, you're going after, even if you don't have a lot of faith in it necessarily, like, it's, it's still better than doing nothing, you know, it's, it's, and I think that that's something else that, like, you know, I mentioned as well in our discussion, and, you know, I think probably I might have used different wording or whatever in that document, but that, um, really core belief that I have just that um. Yeah, you're you have to make things happen in a certain way. That, to me, it's like a differentiation between I have, I have a lot of trouble with, like, the idea of fate, and that's one of the things I've been working on, is that that fate could be a thing. It could be possible. It could be even positive. Because to me, it's like, World is a little bit dog eat dog out there, and you have to you can make your own luck, like you can make luck happen, which I think is like that, that quality where it's like, it might be kind of shitty out there, and you're on your own kid kind of a thing. But you make luck with with the things that you do, as opposed to, like, I don't have the belief that, if I just sit and wait, that, you know, the good things will come to me, that it's like you do have to, I think, try and try and cult cultivate, you know, do a little bit of something. But, yeah, I think it is those, those two types kind of
Mar 36:09
brawl. They Brawl pretty often, in in ways that it's just like the negativity can be, can be there very much, but at the same time it's like
Mar 36:25
it can't, it can't stay there, you know, can't stay there forever, at least to me, is what it feels like it's, it's got to come back up at some point. And when it doesn't come back up, or doesn't feel like it's going to come back up, is like the panic button, like, that's the, that's the I A that's the bad, that's the worst case scenario, kind of a thing, you know, it's like you're gonna be trapped in the kind of nihilistic space forever.
Josh Lavine 36:53
I'm really struck by this, to kind of put tie a bow on it, or just to put it, to pluck the kernel out. It feels like there's assertiveness without, without pragmatism, right? Say it's like not, not having a three fix. There's, you know, there's the sense of, I'm gonna, I'm gonna do something to make something happen for myself. But the plan is still in this kind of fuzzy 794 swirl, you know, but at least I got to do something, and also with self Pres. I think you mentioned this in relation to some of the some of the addiction stuff, which we can get into later. But the the sense that you carry of I've got it under control, right? You know, I've got it under control. I'm doing some, I'm doing this. I'm not out of control. I've got, I've got this covered, but lacking that I don't know pragmatic. I don't know something. There's a, there's a way that plans maybe fall apart. And I want to bring in the boat story,
Mar 38:04
oh yeah, yeah.
Josh Lavine 38:08
And let's, let's, I want
Mar 38:11
to have you that, yeah, it untangles. So one of the, one of the ways to that, like, I kind of like, I think I use, and I use it in life, just the term, assertively stupid, that it is kind of like that, moving, moving, moving, not really thinking about, is this correct? Like a recent example of that even too was like a year two years ago, however long ago, it was traveling abroad and got to the London Airport, and instead of me like stopping and thinking and trying to take the time to, because we're catching a connecting flight, trying to figure out, where do what? Where do I go? You know, to get to my to my flight, I just plow go. I can figure it out. Don't worry. You know, it's, it's all, it's all up here, find the right place. Ended up accidentally exiting the airport and having to go through security and come back in and everything like that. Because I don't stop and figure out, hmm, does this make sense? I just plow ahead and, you know, wind up in London like, oh, okay, I guess it's nice little detour, have a little cigarette outside and then go back in. But yeah, it feels to a lot of the time like, yeah, it just, I just, I just keep, I think of like, Tarzan, or whatever you're swinging from vine to vine, just hoping, then, you know, though, of course, the next vine will be there for me to grab onto. It'll end up totally fine not to worry about it. And that's part of the exceptionalism as well, where it's just kind of like, yeah, no, something like, like alcohol, it's, it's amazing tool that I found. It's, and I'm, because I'm an exception, I get to just use it, um, however I want. Um. Um, it's, you know, it's not gonna be a problem for me. It's not gonna cause issues for me, just different choices and stuff in life, yeah, that you kind of assume, you know, it's that, that, that problem that happens, happens for other people. I'll find a way out, you know, I'll find, I'll find the escape route. It'll be totally fine, kind of a thing. So I don't know what again with the puppies, what the escape route was, what the special little, special little solution was going to be, but sure, at the time, there was one, I don't know. Maybe I was going to ask people for like Walmart gift cards or something, and run a double scam of some kind. I want
Josh Lavine 40:39
to prompt you with this sentence you wrote to start the boat story. So you said, after spending one afternoon on a boat, oh, yeah, and a lot of time picking up litter around my house, I realized that I meant to be out on the open sea collecting absolute mountains of trash in a solar powered vessel and turning them into blocks of plastic to build affordable housing, yes,
Mar 41:03
yeah, it's flawless. Gosh, it's flawless. It's a flawless plan. What could go What? What complications could there be in such a scheme? You know,
Josh Lavine 41:14
so you made an outline, you you, you formed a business. You made two DBAs,
Mar 41:21
yeah, I filed my DBAs,
Josh Lavine 41:25
and then yeah, I realized a bank account for your business.
Mar 41:27
I didn't. I did not get the bank account. Oh, okay, yeah, yes, yes. So, yeah, no, that that. I had phases. I made it. I made several spreadsheets, which is very, you know, it was a spreadsheet consisting of three columns, but, you know, whatever, that's a spreadsheet, yeah, I think it's, this is like the, it's the corollary to the puppy care sheet, where I'm like, No, the plan seamless. You know, of course, this little this will work out, but yeah, it was, I had the opportunity, yeah, to go out on a boat. Wasn't even like I was on the ocean. I was in a bay, on a boat, on a wasn't even a speedboat. Wasn't an it wasn't a pirate ship, even though, you know, that's where my mind goes to. It was just a someone's pontoon boat, but I'm sitting on this boat and I'm said, this is where it's at. This is what I got to be doing. You know, this is where I'm meant to be is, you know, out, out on the open seas, you know, seeing, seeing, whatever that then it was while I was working the next day that, like, it was like, so happens from time to time where it's just, like, a, you know, a lightning, like, it feels like a lightning bolt, just everything comes together absolutely spotless, you know, scheme that I have here, I'm Like, okay, what are the things in this world? I got to be on the boat. I figured that out yesterday. I mean, I could pick up trash. It doesn't really bother me, whatever. And I care about this. And I did some research. I found solar powered boats. I found, you know, I found, looked at the steps, when can I sign up for my boating license so I can, you know, start navigating. And I found that this company where they take it, they take the machines, where they take all of the recycling, and they compact them into these little, you know, cubes, and then you could just build housing. And I'm like, look at that. I'd be, I would be a philanthropist at the same time. Is this not incredible? So, yeah, it was. It was kind of just like all of these things coming together. Yeah, I went and got the DBAs and again too. Like I said, this is, I pick up, I pick up trash around here. I have never once in my life participated in, like, a litter cleanup, you know, like, like, a group kind of situation, or Done, done anything with the community that would be, it's like, at another point in time, I had the idea of being like a priest, you know, I'm like, I should really, you know, just like, get this, get this license, or do something like this. I don't know it was, it was some other train that I was on. And then I, at some point, I do realize I'm like, I haven't been to church in like, 15 years. Why? I don't have a congregation. I don't have any of this stuff. But it's completely, again, it's like, in my own like space, and it's a thing too, where there's something very almost like liminal, or something about it, that it's not like I'm having a ton of imaginings about, you know, oh, and like someone who I know and love dearly has had imaginings about, you know, going on, Oprah and talking like none of that stuff is going on. It's literally like a electric motion machine. Where it's just, we got to go towards this thing now, because I just get this sense of, this is the right, this is the path. This is the the secret path that I, you know, have been, think, like trying, trying to, you know, solve together, and then, yeah, as you, as you progress through the the scheme becomes more and more apparent. Of like for, you know, strike number one for me was that there's apparently already AI boats they've got out there. So ai, ai, you know, already stole the job. Ai already took my dream from me. That, yeah, it's, it's hit certain walls, and at a certain point, I think that's the thing too. It's something else I have a lot of trouble with, is that excitement does kind of get dropped really quickly. It's like a little kid with a bunch of toys that, you know, you pick one up and shake it around, and you drop it and pick another one up, shake it around, you drop it. The stick to itiveness isn't as like, on board. I think it's instant gratification stuff too, yeah, where it's kind of like, this isn't giving me any because, again, to me, it's like, the the impetus for the for the whole thing was kind of like, this is great. I'm on a boat. I'm going to be free sailing out there, having a good time. It wasn't having the integrated sense of and this is what it would mean to the community, and this is what it would mean to people, and this is how it would serve a greater, a greater purpose that I think it because it's self centered. It's very selfish. Yeah. So
Josh Lavine 46:46
was it more of a, was it more of a, like, self contained, self press fantasy of being like, Oh, this feels so good to be out in the open sea, to be doing this thing with my hands? Is that kind
Mar 46:56
of, yeah, I think, I think it's a big part of it. I think too, it's, it's just like some version, again, it's not super internally fleshed out of, like an imagining of me on a boat doing some sort of a thing, but sort of like a piece of the ideal of, oh, when I'm once I'm doing this, that will be so completely, like, sort of stimulating and feel, you know, like, like, it's the magnetic pole of that thing that you could be kind of going towards, yeah, yeah. I
Josh Lavine 47:30
use this phrase with sevens. My sense of what sevens are doing is they're, they're using their imaginations and their visionary capacity to envision what would be an optimally nourishing reality, right, you know, and then comparing that idea, that that reality, or the, sorry, the the fantasy ideal that they've imagined, to reality. And then getting frustrated by the gap in between, that's part where the assertiveness comes in. Is like trying to manifest, trying to shape my reality into the fantasy. But then also, when the effort is too much to close the gap, it's like, all right, whatever. I'll just
Mar 48:10
or, yeah, or, like, I did start getting a little paranoid then, because, like, when I was looking at zoning stuff and whatever the city that we live in, I'm like, oh shit. I hope I don't get, like, sued for, you know, like, there's, there's a lot of that too, that happens in different situations on the back end, where I just do something, and then through odd information coming in, through whatever it might be, getting the feedback that, like, actually, you're not allowed to do that. Like, that's against, you know, that's you know, that's against code, that's against regulation, that's against whatever that usually it's, it's in most situations already too late to undo whatever the thing is that you did. And you just kind of have to be like, Okay, well, I guess this is what we're working with now. But yeah, yeah, I think, I think absolutely it's, it's a sense of which is, again, I think it ties into two, why I have a lot of trouble like looking at the past and reflecting on the past. Because A, I have some memory issues, and then B, it's just like, well, wherever I was, it could be two weeks ago. Could be 10 years ago. It could be whatever. I wasn't optimally nourished there. So why would I want to go back and figure there's nothing there for me to learn is the way that it feels. It just feels like, yeah, not like the a lot of the past just feels like, kind of like a dead thing you drag behind you to me, and you just want to kind of cut it off as best that you can when that's not, you know, that's you have to to grow. You have to, you know, sit and reflect on what you did and, you know what? Why? You did what you did. Because I think that's also to where a lot of like shame and stuff can come up. Because if you're just pretending like the past didn't happen, you know, different situations you didn't, you know you hurt people or whatever it might be, you think that you can just cut that shame out. You know you could just not, not deal with it, just if I'm just a better person, or whatever, you know, tomorrow, it'll make up for it, or something like that. But it's still is something that needs to be like felt and gone through, or else, things I think then come through in like a huge flood. And I think that that's what can happen a lot, too.
Josh Lavine 50:44
You know, something you're saying there is, it's resonating with what I conceive to be kind of the essential quality of seven, which is freedom. And it's like the essential freedom is, you know, when we're really present, we are we're able to meet the moment in a way that is fresh and unencumbered by any of our past experience. It's like spontaneous creativity. You could say it's like, here we are with this moment, whatever's here, and the image that you just painted of like the past is this thing that you drag behind you, that is that feeling is the opposite of that freedom, you know, and the the seven drive to escape, that encumberment By all that stuff is what drives the distracted, shoddy object pursuing kind of thing in Seven that frustrated. I don't like that. Get off and and also the sense of, like, what you're describing, the taste testing of the past. It's like, I already tried that thing. I saw that there was nothing there for me. So like, I don't want to go back that, like, let me just keep let me go forward, because I know that if I keep going forward, there's this faith that I'll find, I'll ultimately find the thing. But in the past, at least in the classic archetypal seven story, it's like the way that I've the way that I tasted those things was not in a really present way. And so potentially, I've just missed something that wasn't that may have been fulfilling if I showed up to it and adjusted in a more, in a in a way that was actually meeting it from the depth of me to the depth of that thing.
Mar 52:23
Oh, yeah, yeah, that's interesting, yeah. I think that's, that's too like, that's a whole, yeah, like, kind of like a a layer that I
Mar 52:43
Yeah, yeah, it's, that's, that's really interesting, because that that framing, is something that doesn't even, I think, yeah, really directly, like, come to mind that that would, that would be, that would actually, because that would hurt, you know, like that would really, if I am thinking about if I sat and I wrote out, you know, just different experiences that I've had, and, you know, considered, you know, was this, actually, did it have the possibility of being nourishing, but I just didn't allow it to be like, I can feel how that would cause such a sense of, I don't, I don't know if it would be loss or if it'd be some kind of it is, it is like a sort of, I think that a lot of something that It aligns with that can cause a lot of terror in a certain way. Is that, like, Oh, my script, my narrative, my map that I have here might have been wrong, and I might have to, you know, make some kind of adjustment that I wouldn't feel willing to make, but yeah, that that would be like something really interesting to kind of sit and, like, sift through, you know, like, try to take the time to do that,
Josh Lavine 54:11
yeah, and, and where you just went with it is that's really good too, because it's kind of the core being a mental type. That's the core fear of the mental sensor is that my perceptions aren't trustworthy, you know. You know, we are. Maybe a way to put it is that mental types, all three of them, are attempting to shore up their certainty, you know, so they don't experience that primordial existential anxiety of, oh my god, what if I'm not seeing correctly? And the whole seven frame that they take mentally is around what wasn't nourishing and what will be nourishing out there, right, right? So if that frame is wrong, it's like, oh my god, the whole way I've been or. Or anything in my reality is in question, and that throws you into that primordial anxiety, right? Yeah. And also, I just want to point out the it feels like there was a resonant note there around the potential of like, the grief that would expose itself in that project of reviewing the past in that way,
Mar 55:29
right? Yeah, yeah.
Mar 55:38
I do think that
Mar 55:46
there's, there's two things. One of I kind of mentioned that I do think that when you're constantly, you know, like, I talked a lot about control and what I sent to you, like, when you're trying to control so much I think your your your heart or your
Mar 56:11
what, what kind of expression you know you allow, or something in a certain way. I don't know if that certain way to put that to then, you know, if you're, if you're moving towards an aim, or if you're and also to if it's in terms of, like, I don't let that I'm not, I don't feel that way, like, that's not a piece of me, whatever it might be, that the more and more you constrict something, then it comes, It does come out, I think in floods of it feels uncontrolled, you know, and that's to me, it's like the way I've experienced a lot of the time, painful things coming through that have been neglected, is it's just like this flood that just comes out. And is, it feels, feels kind of kind of foreign, or something like that, like it feels uh, slow, feels like muck. You know, it feels like kind of getting stuck in the muck of something. But there's also a way to something else I've been working with that I haven't really been able to tie together super well. But to me, it has a lot of meat to it. Is there's something about it sounds like it would be in like that reflection process of, you know, looking, looking at the past, and just changing the the way of I
Mar 57:47
don't really know the right word to use, not feeling about things, because that's whatever that there's, there's a lot of fragility, I think, to things as well. And I think that a big part of what I do day to day, moment to moment, assertively stupid, moving through the airport, going through the wrong place, treating, you know, things the way I do, situations, people, myself, whatever it might be, is kind of denying the fragility of either like the the emotional world, or the heart, or, I think just certain aspects of life is, is not seeing how we're denying, I think, in a certain way, that things, things can break, and once they're broken, they're unfixable, like it always feels like, Of course, I can, can repair that it can, you know, over overcome this thing, not have the not get stuck down at the bottom of the well, you can find a way out. You find a ladder, get a, you know, Seagull to come pull you out, something like that.
Mar 58:56
Yeah, I think between the flooding of, you know, just feeling that that can come with doing
Mar 59:07
reflection on on the past, and you know what, what you've what you've allowed yourself, in a way, to miss out on, and then, yeah, just the how fragile you are that you you maybe you were hurt, you know, maybe you were harmed by this thing. Maybe it was not a joke, you know, maybe it was, it was serious business, you know, that kind of a thing,
Josh Lavine 59:36
yeah, yeah. You know, as you're talking, it feels like this is what your writing is about.
Mar 59:44
I think a little bit, yeah, I think it's, it sits in there, that's and that is a an aspect that I kind of picked up on at a certain. Certain point where it is just like, for a certain period of time,
Mar 1:00:05
I kept getting, I was like, in a because I don't, I don't get writer's block in general, like, that's something I don't have an issue with. But I do get in like, what I've called just like cattle shoots, where it's just like, this, the same content getting written over and over and over again. And I don't at the time, at least I didn't realize it until I was then going back and reading over and being like, Oh my God, all of this stuff just has the same kind of like ending, the same sort of not somatically like stuff going on. But I do think that there's a way that, you know, writing, writing, writing, doing all this stuff, not realizing what exactly is getting put into it in a certain way. And then I think that's where, then to some of the like, oh God. You know, once you realize, like, Oh, my God, I can't believe I just put that, put that out there, like that. You know that that's, I think, a big loop that I've gotten in for majority of my life where it's like, the main mode of operation is just me thinking like, hell yeah. Like, do it? Go for it. Do that. Put that there. Put that out there. Do that thing, you know, throw it out there, see what happens. And then could be you longest maximum loop, like loop return is usually about two years. It's usually faster than that, a lot faster than that, like with the collection right now that is set to come out later this year. I'm already done with it. Like I don't care about I actually hate it almost a little bit at this point that I'm already, I've already written the new the next thing, I'm halfway through editing it, it's it's already, it's more refined to, I think it's also the thing of, just like that other thing wasn't correct or something, and it like there's something rotten about it. It being it's just the expression isn't, isn't there the way I want it to be? And, yeah, yeah, I'm rambling anyway at this point. But, yeah, I do think that there's a way that the writing can serve as a like conduit in a certain way for like, oh, like material that is trying, trying to push through that you aren't allowing to. You know, you're not letting it, letting it through. I'm
Josh Lavine 1:02:41
hearing like some 747, what you're saying, where it's like, what I wrote, what when I, when I was writing it, it was the it was at the edge of me. It was, or it was like, coming from a certain depth in me, and it felt right. And then I was, I got to this point. I was like, okay, yeah, I want to send it out. Let's go and then, and then, once it's once it's out there, and then you've taken a few steps forward, it becomes part of that train of things that are in the past, that are, yeah, yeah, bogging you down, you know? And it's just like, all about forward motion. And that's that was the past. I don't want to be encumbered by that anymore. And and also it's like, it's like even this thing that you wrote, that you created, is no longer mirroring you in the right way. That's precise to this moment, which is that for fix thing as well. So even though, even though you've generated it, but, yeah, anyway, so, but I get that as a kind of a creative, kind of staying at the edge of your creative unfoldment. But the the thing that I was tuning into Is it okay, if I, like, just briefly summarize a couple of the pieces that you sent me?
Mar 1:03:53
Sure, yeah, I'd be curious to hear I'm because I try to summarize it and don't, don't uh, don't, do a great job. So I'd be curious, yeah, to hear Yeah.
Josh Lavine 1:04:05
So in one of the pieces there is, you're, you're, I think, in some kind of Park, you're watching swans, and you're sitting on a bench, and the swans are attacking each other, and some guy comes over and tries to pull them apart, and he's terrified that they're going to hurt each other, and he asks you for help, and essentially you say, No, you're just watching this. You're letting nature take its course. And he judges you, but he tries to wrestle them apart. They are so and entwined in their aggression towards each other that they can't be taken apart. Other people come to help. He leaves to go call someone an authority, someone in italics, and and then these people that he has left with these swans, are trying, are holding them, and it's this delicate thing. And then one of them accidentally moves. And so. A way that maybe snaps their necks, and the whole the the tension and aggression and everything just goes limp right away, right? And the guy comes back, and he's like, Oh, it's too late. And then he judges you, and then they leave. And then you're alone with these two dead swans, and the at the end of it, you take their necks and you take their necks and you intertwine them, and you kind of lay them on top of each other. And then there's this moment of kind of sacred tragedy you could say, and yeah. And there's, yeah, there's something about that that is is resonating with this sense of how to put it, what you were saying before that it's maybe it's not a joke, you know, maybe, maybe when something is broken, it can't be fixed. There isn't the swans can't be brought back to life. There is a finality to this, like this. It's a one way door. You can't walk back backwards through it. And there's something profound about it, something tragic, something sad, and also something beautiful about that. But there's something, let's see, here's a way to put it, like in this, in the sensibility of seven, where it's like, there's always a ladder up. There's always a way to redeem this thing. There's always some some thing that could happen around the corner, some possibility that will bring us back into the sunlight, into the joy whatever, into the nourishment. Sometimes there isn't, and those moments are worthy of our reverence. That's what came through to me in that piece and and I think maybe also in the in the one about your family too, with the birds eating your face, but we'll stay we'll stay here. We'll stay here on the swan one for a second. Does that feel like an accurate reading to you or no?
Mar 1:06:59
Yeah. I mean, do I feel?
Mar 1:07:16
Yeah, no, I definitely think there's a huge sense, yeah, of that sort of hitting a wall, you know, like hitting the wall of something, a finality, of something like you're saying the
Mar 1:07:39
again, that that working, and I think that that's what a lot of the stories are trying to work out in a certain way, is that sense of fate, that the plan that might might exist, you know, more inclined, I think there's an amorality to it. So like in that story, the only correction I would make is that, at least for me, I thought that the swans were in love, you know, they were so in love with each other, and then everyone okay, that, uh, they were trying to separate them. And it's like, no, no, they're in love with each other. You gotta let them kill each other. And then, you know, like, put them, put them there. Um, but, um, yeah, no, I think that there's, there's something about the way, something that happens, that, yeah, that the can't, that can't be undone, and that there could be a plan, you know, that that could be part of some, some kind of plan that you're not in control of, that you can't change, you know, that there's, there's no way through it. It's, it's like in dreams as well. It's one of the things, I think, as an image and as a feeling, you get a feeling in a dream, you know, get an image, and a dream that can be really impactful is that, you know, you have a nightmare of some kind. There's some kind of death, some I've had a lot of dreams of, you know, suffocation. You get the experience in in those nightmares of this thing can't be undone, you're going to hit a certain kind of a wall. And I think, too in life, that's part of the experience that you can try and try and work with is that, you know, there's, there's no way to stop the light from going out. At a certain point it's going to go out. It's very terrifying thing. But there's, there's nothing, no scheme you can cook up. There's no escape hatch at a certain point that you you'll die. Everyone you love will die. The sun's going to die. The universe is going to die. There's just going to be this big, black, empty pool of absolute nothingness. And that, having an orientation to me of fate and understanding that there could be a. Brand project. I don't know if that's the right word for that project, but something of that sort does create a quality that, like, I do think in the stories, is the thing that gets returned to again and again. So that's definitely like, I think in that story, it's a sense of like, this is what had to happen, is what was going on. It's not a story about, you know, inaction and refusing to, you know, participate in saving these birds. It's just almost more like the all the bystanders ending up snapping their neck, the necks of the birds. Yeah, yeah, that there is a quality to
Mar 1:10:44
the way things kind of unfold, you know, the way that things go, and the attempt to influence, or, you know, it's gotta, it's gotta turn out in a way that any particular person sees as, you know, the positive outcome of something
Mar 1:11:09
that's not how the the universe works, you know, to in an extent, and that's the that's the terrible thing, and that's what to me, in an unhealthy state, feels nihilistic, it feels cold. It feels like, you know, if all you have is a sort of very materialistic view on the world, and I make my luck, and I make my way through life, and dog eat dog. It is what it is. You know, I have to
Mar 1:11:36
take care of myself that then there being finality and, yeah, a real pit that one of the words I worked on with. I don't see the therapist anymore, but the most recent therapist I saw
Mar 1:11:56
was just this idea of meaningless suffering. You know that, like to me, that's the most allergic feeling, you know, that I have, in a certain way, is towards, yeah, meaning meaningless suffering that there has. There has to be some something, right? There has to be something behind it. There has to be some way to reframe it, or some way to play with it, or toy with it, or, you know, make it into whatever that I do, think a lot of the times in writing that that's what I end up touching on, yeah, yeah. And kind of expressing is a way that there is a certain I don't know if chaos isn't the right word, but like a kind of, just Non, non rational sort of way that things go. But it could be, you know, that a different, someone else has a scheme that's higher than your scheme kind of a thing, you know, yeah.
Josh Lavine 1:13:03
And I would argue, maybe a sense of, you know, I was going to use the word, like resignation to it, but there's, and that word is coming to me, not from, necessarily from the swan thing, although there is, I think there is that, a hint of that in there too. But in the story about the bird eating your face, right, right, right, yeah, is it? Can I summarize that one too?
Mar 1:13:30
Sure, yeah, go for it. Okay.
Josh Lavine 1:13:33
I asked because I don't want to, well, yeah, okay, yeah,
Mar 1:13:37
it's, here's, here's the thing real quick to me too, yeah, part, part of the the thing that has never really been a problem for me is that I put my stuff out there, you know. And to me, I know people are gonna fuck it up, like, I know that people are gonna, like, misinterpret it. They're gonna find something, they're just gonna critique it, you know, whatever. That's just part of the game to me. So it's, it's, it is the work itself. And hearing like, you know, people have interpretations of it, like, okay, it's, it's, it's sort of, if you're too much clinging on to is my piece that I made, and it's this particular it's like, then you don't have a healthy relationship with your art. I think so to me, it's more when it's just like people like the David Lynch thing, that people come at me and say, Oh, you do. It's just like, that's me. That's the word. This is me, not. They don't. We don't touch like we don't the me and other people don't touch that. It's just kind of like, yeah, I don't know. I just, I just want to throw that in there real quick. I'm not gonna, you know, I don't. I don't begrudge people having their own opinions about things. Yeah, put something out there. People are gonna have opinions about it,
Josh Lavine 1:14:59
you know? Yeah. Yeah, I guess I just, I'm acknowledging the sensitivity about you have this piece of writing, it is readable within, I don't know, 510, minutes, but then there's a sort of violence done to it in just the summary, you know. So we'll put a, we'll put a, we'll put a link, so that people can actually read the piece, maybe, but maybe, okay, up to you. But the So, the summary is that you're kind of, you hatch. The first line is, I hatch a little bird inside my heart, feed it, tear crumbs and place it on my shoulder. Okay? And then, love that. This, Yeah, amazing. And then, and then this bird, essentially, it goes and spies on your family, and it comes back to you and it and it gives you kind of the gossip, your sister's getting married, your parents aren't in love anymore, or whatever, just these kinds of things, right, right, right. And it wants payment. And so it starts eating your flesh, right? Yeah. And it starts with your ear. And then eventually, you know, you're hungry for this information and you want it. But then at a certain point, it's eaten so much of you that there's nothing left that you can give it, and it flies away in a kind of judgmental slough. And and then you it's, I guess the character in the story wants this information, and so they actually, actually go visit your family. You knock on the door, your dad opens it, but he doesn't recognize this eaten face, and he closes the door. And you've also, you've called, you've tried to call your family. They're not answering your phone. You say, Please let me in. Let me see mom. And then they don't. And then the is it okay if I read the final line,
Mar 1:16:53
yeah, yeah, yes, okay.
Josh Lavine 1:16:56
So I dial the number from the porch steps, but never hear their phones ring. Shadows lift and peek from behind the windows and eventually hollowed out. I returned to my car and stay home. Nothing much has changed, except that I throw rocks at birds when I get the chance, and I chucked the incubator into the dumpster. That's just the kind of person I've turned out to be.
Mar 1:17:18
Decent ending there, yeah, it's not too bad.
Josh Lavine 1:17:20
Yeah, yeah. So there's this. It has the feeling of an elegy. It has the feeling of a that sense of resignation, of there is something that has happened that is, I can't go back. I can't i These relationships are irrecoverable, or I've become this person that I can't transform out of, or something like that. There's a sense of finality about it, and that's, yeah. So anyway, I just was getting that same resonant note in this story, but it was this story is more personal than the swans, right, right? Yeah. Anyway, so that's
Mar 1:18:00
no that's very that's very astute, and that's why I say to me, it's very interesting, at least to me, to hear, you know what? What people like I had someone tell me that that story was too organized, which was just weird feedback, but yeah, things, things like that. Again, I'm like, who's thinking about organization when it comes to a story? Like, why is that even what's out anyway? But yeah, no, I, I do. I definitely think that, yeah, there's definitely a way that to me, the thing, like my general feeling about writing, what I aim to do with a little, I like to call them little pocket knife stories, is to kind of give the symbol legs. You know that, like you, you have the symbol something symbolic. It doesn't have to be a symbol that exists, something in the interplay of action itself within a story, to kind of give it its own yeah legs that I think for something to be I also have, like, my own word for what, what I kind of look for in in creative stuff, that there's a there's a beauty, and there's like a tragedy to something, and there's always like a kind of violence to it as well. Like those, those, those qualities, I think, are usually intrinsic, because to me, I guess part of the feeling is like, that's the full expression of the heart, and in a certain ways, that is that there's going to be something very tragic about it. There's going to be something beautiful. There's going to be something little bit violent as well. Maybe that's something else. But, yeah, that a. Um, I do think that there's a,
Mar 1:20:13
I mean, even, even too so that that story with the bird ripping ripping your skin off the I think that that one has a quality of the sort of fragility, you know, that I mentioned, where it's like there is a way of seeing life. It could be a number of things in life, including your own, your own body, as much more fragile than at least, I kind of treat it in the day to day life that there. I think there is something, you know, the the word that I have for what I try to write is merjaza, like it has, like, a certain components of things that I'm trying to pack in there, or something that there's going to be, just Yes, something like fragile, beautiful, tragic kind of going going on that, yeah, it has, because I even think about, You know, like again, with the idea of a nightmare you wake up from where, like you've, you know, so, so many people, as an example, have a dream of a tidal wave, you know, coming towards them that's flooded, floods out the whole world, and everybody's dead. And you wake up from something like that, and you you have an experience of the fragility, or, if you, if you have a sort of a, you know, health, health crisis of a different kind, whether mental or physical, or whatever it might be, if you survive it, and you like, right on, right on the edge, you know, you're teetering On the edge of something there that and you survive it, then you have an experience of the fragility of something. Again. I'm just, I'm rambling again, but,
Josh Lavine 1:22:14
well, I want to mention one other, one other just observation is that there is, I think, one thing that I see in you is this inner tension, you could say, between two poles. One is the reverence for this kind of tragedy finality. And by the way, I would say this is why I think your four wing has a five fix, because of the willingness to look unflinchingly in the face of these unnerving truths. And also just paint these pictures of like a flesh eating bird, for example, that you hatch that ironic, that's that feels more five than throwing but there's so you have that whole tone, mood, flavor happening there. And also you have this kind of, you could say, playful, even sometimes flippant, attitude towards some of this tragedy and suffering. It's like, Well, that happened, all right. Let's, you know, let's on to the next thing. And you know that which is coming from the seven, right and and maybe just while we're here in this territory, I'll just say the bird, the bird story, too, also has that nine quality to me, of the kind of sacred harmony of this whole thing, like nature's playing itself out. Yes, it's violent, but it's also beautiful. And there's something even comforting about that, like I lay these birds on top of each other, kind of a thing anyway. So that's the the all three, all three of the of your fixes were there, but even in your bio, your art, your art, your author. Bio, I'll just the the your author. Bio, is essentially one sentence, um, is okay if I say your name, by the way, we're going to do a different
Mar 1:23:58
name. Oh, I'm fine with Mar, yeah, no, I decided that Harriet, Harriet was a demon who was occupying me for a while, that I got an exorcism. So it's all good,
Josh Lavine 1:24:06
yeah? The whole thing about names, which was maybe talking about a second, but so you're so your artist, there's your author. Bio is Mar of should, sorry, how do you pronounce your name?
Mar 1:24:17
Yeah? Okay, yeah. It's a word I made up.
Josh Lavine 1:24:22
So, so your author's bio is, Mar off sheet is a spoil sport who, tr who tragically dropped and lost her sea monkeys in the carpet as a kid,
Mar 1:24:32
right? It was, it was a tragic I was picking at the the fibers for, for hours,
Josh Lavine 1:24:38
an hour. True story. Oh, 100%
Mar 1:24:42
Yeah, I wanted to take them around me everywhere. You know, I had my sea monkeys again, obsession with pets is my pet is my thing. And, yeah, it was I got upgraded from. So the upgrade went pet rock ant farm. I killed all the ants, and then sea monkeys, and they had them in the. Little container that they send them in, and I wanted to take them everywhere with me. And because I'm a disaster person, I tripped on my way down the stairs, spilled them all over the carpet, and then, you know, spent the time like it was a little tiny and they were all dead. It was, it was over. It was, it was a tragedy, for sure. Yeah.
Josh Lavine 1:25:22
So there it is, right there. That's the tragedy. And also just the fact that it's the it's a one sentence bio, and that's what you chose. It's funny, you know? Thank you. It's funny. And that's the thing that's like, it's like play, playing with darkness and suffering, which is kind of the an esthetic fingerprint of the 794 sensibility, right, right?
Mar 1:25:47
Yeah, yeah, no, um. Those, those bios, are always interesting to try and try and figure out. Because, I mean, majority of, again, me like having my feelings about the social sphere of writing things. It's usually like. Jennifer lives in Seattle, Washington with her two dogs and her husband Steve. She has her Masters in Fine what is the Masters of Fine Arts, and she loves playing pickleball in her spare time. I'm just like, well, I'm definitely not doing that, man. So I gotta, you know, let's go back to something that's very it's, you know, maybe, oh, and I'm sure, at the time when the sea monkey, you know, massacre happened, that I was heartbroken. You know, my I cultivated these. These were my little shrimps. I cultivated them myself, and then they're dead. And, you know, I'm sure if I actually spent the time to go back and, you know, feel into what happened there, more like, what was, what was the situation, that I'd feel sad. But, you know, the time being, it's just funny to me. You know, it's just funny thing to happen. It's like, of course, you trip, trip, trip down the stairs. Yeah. So
Josh Lavine 1:27:03
why has writing been had such staying power for you, it's such a contrast, because it's a thread that has actually gone through and remained intact, yeah, through so many phases of your life. And it was what I'm contrasting it with is the kind of flash. Of enthusiasm for being out on the open sea, cleaning up litter and forming a business around that, versus the kind of yes steadiness of this pull towards writing and expressing
Mar 1:27:37
this thing. The best way that I can put it is, to me, the experience of sitting and writing something that you just feel is, again, contains the Bucha, contains those qualities that really are activating and feel like, to me, it's like, it's an interesting story. It's got something, something really symbolic, you know, going on in it, or something that really is, I don't know, like it's almost like giving want to say it's like giving birth. It's not like giving birth.
Speaker 1 1:28:23
There's just a
Mar 1:28:26
real, I think the act, the act of writing, is, you know, chasing words around. So you're doing a little bit of chasing. You're trying to find the exact, you know, things that kind of go together to make a point about whatever the particular you know, symbol or the mood, or whatever it might be, is that I think it's something about that feeling of just complete
Mar 1:29:08
create to me, creativity, you know, is that
Mar 1:29:17
it just feels inherent, I think, as well to just part of who I am as a person. Like, it's like I was born that way to do that thing, and it just, it has always been a piece of what I do. And, yeah, other things kind of come and go. But the that connection to what to me, like again, it feels, it feels like something symbolic that you're then really playing with and spicing up and doing whatever you want to do with it that feels just correct to me, like it just it feels very much. It's just who I am. Like, you know, those are things I do, but that's big piece of who I am. It just, it's really important, yeah,
Josh Lavine 1:30:11
yeah. I guess it strikes me that writing is a an easy way, not easy. It's not the right word, but it's a, it's a natural expression for the self press sexual seven project of curling into myself, being fascinated What's with what's going on in me, kind of playing with that more. You know, I love your word, chasing words around. But it's that has this kind of internal, like, sneaking against tail quality. You could say,
Mar 1:30:45
yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think to me too, like, it can be part of the difficulty, but also to me, just part of the like, joy with then share, sharing, writing, you know, I do think it was something I worked on a little while ago where it was like trying to realize how much pressure I put for writing my self press thing I've been doing here to be a way of connecting with people, and then that not really working, like not really seeing how that didn't work out for me. But I think that too, yeah, it can, it can be difficult, but it can also be really fun, at least to me, in a certain way that my I think that my approach towards why I write, what I'm doing with writing, etc, is pretty different from other people, from what I have, like, discerned that I don't, um, particularly spend a lot of time, like, imagining a character and imagining a world and doing this kind of a thing. That's why I kind of have, like I said, that feeling that I have, that it's giving a symbol legs, that it's, it's like, you, you in, maybe in that kind of self contained space are, circling around something specific that then you want to
Mar 1:32:13
just, yeah, kind of think of like Frankenstein's monster, kind of a thing, you know, like shoot, shoot voltage through it, and then kind of throw, throw the seeds out there, into into the into the world that I can be cool, you know, when get to share that with people, but then I've also gotten a lot of feedback that earlier, earlier on in my writing journey, I had an editor directly tell me that, like, there's no audience for your work, like there's no audience for what you're trying to do. And like, luckily for me, I'm not thinking when I'm writing. I'm not thinking at all about who is this for? You know, what's the story, what's the social impact? And that's a big thing too. That happens a lot is, yeah, a lot of people, again, it's, it's, I don't, it doesn't touch me. So it's whatever of a lot of people do, you know, right? And they want it to really have a social implication. When, really, to me, it's, it's just like, No, I want to over and over and over then, like, different variations of these different interesting things that are kind of coming in that then I get to, you know, send out there, like little, little paper airplanes,
Speaker 1 1:33:38
yeah, yeah. So
Josh Lavine 1:33:41
there's the social blind element. Of not your writing doesn't have a social purpose. It's not for anyone else. It's not for a particular audience that you have in mind, right? It's it's almost just, there's a purity of self expression and a even the writing itself is it's social blind in the sense that, like, okay, for example, in the swan story, it's like the other people. This is, I don't know, this is maybe too much of a stretch, because it's, it is a short story, but the people are sort of, like, not characters, you know, like, sort of just hap they're just, they're just propellers of action. But they're kind of disembodied, or abstractions, you know, out there. They're just they, they serve the function of moving the swans out of the water into the onto the land, breaking the neck and then. But there's this kind of way that you're not really participating in that social context of the appropriateness of saving the swans, or whatever it's kind of, you know, I'm saying that's, that's part that was kind of like part of the feeling tone of that whole story.
Mar 1:34:47
Yeah, no, no. And that's that's almost in every single especially this, this longer project that I'm working on editing now that that's i. I think, a baseline and something that I personally am proud of. But again, I've gotten feedback that other people don't appreciate. Is I just, yeah, I don't feel the need to build characters. I can, you know, read or look at other things where I'm like, wow, I can forget what it was recently that I was something, I think it was a movie or something I was watching. I remember what it was. I'm just like, oh, this is, this is why. And actually, that was finished one thought at a time that, yeah, anyway, whatever I was watching, I was thinking, Oh, that's why people build characters, because it Oh, okay, can deliver then the, you know, the whatever you wanna call it the pinnacle, or whatever it might be in a more more of a zap to a little more of a zing, you know, like human relatability, that it was only a couple of years ago. And you know, I've been writing since and publishing things since I was about 18 or 19. I'm not that old anymore. That I got the feedback only a couple years ago that somebody said, you know, people in stories, they like having characters that they can relate to, like that's something people look for, not on my radar, not on my list of, there's in a list, yeah, just not really in my periphery. Then I'm like, That's and again, I hear that information of, you know, people like to have a character they can relate to. I think, okay. And then I don't change what I'm doing with my writing. I continue to have, yeah, like, sort of the human shaped protocols, or something like that, in the stories themselves, you know, like, like you said, it's like they're, they're a medium for action to occur. But, and, you know, can be fun to, like, throw in a little bit of something that gives the impression that this, you know, medium, this person, whatever it is, has a backstory, you know, a little something there. But in general, just, I'm not a character writer. I'm not like a world builder. That's, you know, just not what I do. So I just, yeah, kind of keep up and try to continuously Hone, hone in and refine, like, exactly the method of delivery for that that I think makes, makes the most sense.
Josh Lavine 1:37:31
Yeah, all right, so let's, let's explore one more topic, and I kind of want to go into the territory of your relationship with drinking. And just as I bring up the topic, what, like, what would be the natural way to enter into this topic for you, um,
Mar 1:37:50
I mean, where I am generally at with it is, um, kind of I have my own. I things are a lot better, you know, than than in the past with things. My own relationship with alcohol in general is,
Speaker 1 1:38:16
I
Mar 1:38:19
am just generally trying to see different, different ways that see now I'm having, like, a brain, brain, fart. A lot of the, a lot of the, I'm gonna use the word programs. A lot of the programs, or the narratives or stuff out there, the way it's presented is not particularly helpful to me. It's not, I don't feel like geared towards social blind, and, you know, kind of the way that, at least for me, not going to generalize, but the way that, you know, I that I use, you know, alcohol, that, to me, it's a tool. I feel like I use it like
Josh Lavine 1:39:11
a tool, yeah, for what? What does it do?
Mar 1:39:15
So I think it does, it does, does a lot of different things that, again, it's, it's that, if it felt when I, when I first really had encounters with, with drinking, it felt like I found this amazing tool to first and foremost, you know, above anything else is kind of like whatever is happening. Turn it up and turn it up a little bit more,
Mar 1:39:43
is the impression that kind of feel with with drinking in general, is that is why, like, I think a lot of a lot of the language around like, Oh, you're trying to to numb. Something, or you're trying to,
Mar 1:40:04
like, sort of escape from something that, to me, it feels more like, No, I'm just, I think one of the ways I've been thinking about it, at least recently, is if you're familiar, if you're familiar at all, like, with the myth of, like, King Midas, where it feels to me like alcohol is the special thing that turns everything that I touch into gold. You know that it's just like anything particular thing that I'm doing, it's gold. Now it's gold. And something that I you know, again, with with the negative, the negative side of that, that I discerned a while ago. That's a piece of it is, you know, part, part of that myth is that then you can't eat because the food that you eat turns to gold. You can't drink because the drink turned to gold. That when I and just continuously engaging and drinking and thinking like, this is great. This is great. This is great. It builds a really narrow and thick sort of barrier around myself, around my experience that to me, it feels like free. It feels like being free. It feels like being activated. It feels like I'm really just like, again, I have this, this great, this great option right here, I can use very little middleman. That's the thing too, is it's just like, so many things to me, feel like there's a middleman between me and the thing. And, you know, not having social I don't feel like I can really navigate that well. So just like, how do I cut that out? That when it gets ongoing and bad and everything, generally, with with the alcohol, it's like, I don't realize how much I've kind of enclosed myself, yeah, in, in this thing that then, you know, it can, it can lead to, can lead to a lot of panic. It can lead to some troubling, troubling situations, as well as, you know, I've had then experiences where it can feel like when I then am interacting, you know, with someone else. It just triples down, that sense of like they don't touch me and I don't touch them, kind of a thing where it's just like you've built this, this castle of gold around you, of all your, you know, reinforces your separateness. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Which can, you know, in some situations, and I, at times, have thought about it as a positive thing, because it's like, especially like, if it's, you know, you're, you're just that, like, people I've lived with have just known me to be like, That crazy, drunk bitch, you know, kind of a thing like that. That's what you're doing. And as a social ass, like, that's fine. Then interact with crazy drunk bitch, and it also, then too, it excuses all of your terrible behaviors that you might engage in.
Josh Lavine 1:43:13
It's an easy scapegoat for, I was just that wasn't me. I was doing that. Yeah,
Mar 1:43:19
yeah, that. It's just like, oh, well, you know, of course,
Josh Lavine 1:43:24
you know, some reinforcing of the exempt thing, I guess, too, right? Yeah, you know, what's interesting is, as you're talking about this, I like, I get, it's like, sounds amazing, you know? It's like, yeah, I can see the appeal, you know, yeah. And, and also, I get how it can be destructive when it's overused, but it's that that's, that's the nature of any, any addiction, right? It's like it's solving. It's solving. It feels like it's solving some problem. You know, at least, Oh, yeah. And, and I, the reason I brought it up here at the end is because, with self press, sexual without the kind of the pull towards being answerable to relationships, social relationships, self press, sexual can have the and also with self press. First, it's like I want to feel a certain way, to access some inner state of creativity or freedom or whatever it's like. Here's the substance that can help you get there. Self per sexual has a a natural tendency towards substances as a way to access those kinds of states. And then again, without social it's kind of like I can kind of stay curled into myself for a while, you know? And that's where it can kind of really get out of control. And so I guess that's that has been your experience. And so what? What has helped?
Mar 1:44:48
Goodness, what has helped? I think that again, one of the things, one is becoming a little old lady. Say that your body, just like I don't think it can take it at a certain point. And I've had, you know, in the last year or so, realizations about again, you're not an exception. Alcohol will make fat. Alcohol make you unwell. It'll give you health health problems, and that being, you know, that's a limitation, right? There is if you feel and then, you know, you don't look your best. You know, getting kind of getting a little gnarly um that also, I think that for me, part of it has been um, the finding my own way to understanding, you know, like I mentioned earlier, that concept of what in AA, you Know, they would talk about as a higher power that, even though, like, they try to, like, cushion it and all this stuff about, like, oh, it can be a coffee pot. It could be, you know, whatever doesn't have to be religious. Like, to me, the religious part isn't the problem. To me, the something else having any of my own, I want to even say interests, but my, um, my nourishment, like, I don't, I don't expect something else is going to to provide that for me. Like, that's, there's, there's no hot there's no higher power in my cosmology. Um, so kind of developing some part of that. Again, the therapist I was seeing, he had me work with things like the I Ching um, and try to really, like to me, really trying to incorporate the sense that there could be um, some something, you know, it feels, it still feels very, not clear, I think, some kind of way to to approach that. And then, God was the last piece I had it there met, oh, that, with that, with that, you know, wanting to turn the things into gold that I do think it ties in with self press, where it is kind of like, I'm always going to have that urge to kind of turn the volume up a little bit more on something, and I've just tried to find different ways to to do that that aren't as, like destructive. So there's a whole variety I've been like, discovering and looking into of different like herbs and this and that and the other that can, you know, light you up in different ways that then don't. Isn't like hitting yourself over the head with a hammer every single day. You know, right? It's a lot better for you. Well,
Josh Lavine 1:48:00
that sounds great, but, yeah, I'm fascinated by this piece that you're bringing up about surrendering your agency to a higher power, or just just something, to anything else that would then be responsible for your nourishment, instead of you coming from that core seven perspective of like, the nourishment is the most important thing to me. Yeah, it makes sense to me why you would have had that resistance. Cool, okay, well, I'm noticing the time I feel like maybe we come to a close, yeah, yeah. Is there anything that I haven't asked about you that feels important? I uh,
Mar 1:48:45
not really. I mean, I didn't really have, you know, a a real. I didn't have commandments that I wanted to make sure, you know, we're we're set. So, no, I just enjoyed, enjoyed talking with you.
Josh Lavine 1:49:03
Yeah, likewise, yeah. What has, what has this been like for you? Uh, I think
Mar 1:49:10
it's been pretty good. I mean, I feel again with, with what I've been trying to work on is not have, like, I have my idea of how an interaction should be, you know, of like I should be feeling this way during it, that I've been trying to feel more into, like, what is the actual situation that we're In right now call for, you know, like, yeah, that a lot, a lot of the time. It doesn't need to be just, you know, clinically insane, whatever that, yeah, no, I think so I think it's been, it's been. Yeah, it's been cool. It's been it's been nice.
Josh Lavine 1:50:06
Yeah, for me too, I really appreciate your your openness, and I feel like we that whole exploration of the reverence for the tragedy thing, plus the the always looking for that ladder out, or, I don't know that the was, the way we put it, that the reverence for some things being final, you know, which I guess, as you could say, is a sevens journey towards acknowledging that there are limitations, and how when you really face those in a sober way, sober, not necessarily in terms of alcohol, but in terms of, like the the virtue of sobriety, like that clear, clear minded way that actually drops you into yourself in a way that's more present than before, and unlocks a level of freedom that allows you to kind of meet the moment without being encumber ball, that stuff from your past. Uh, past, right, opens up that res, that resonant, reverent place inside. So I thought that was a really cool kind of thing we discovered, yeah,
Mar 1:51:11
yeah, yeah, yeah, I think, and I think too like that speaks to as well. I guess this kind of is a good little addendum, maybe even two to the whole thing with with drinking and stuff around that is that, to me, it's like so much of the advice, I guess you could call it, or the I like, to me too, it's like the framework that's there of you know, how to, how to not be a drunk, is very much just like you just, you know, you get sober and you just have the sense of just righteous, you know, forward movement that, to me, like that leaves out that, that little piece that, again, I'm still kind of investigating about fragility and about, yeah, just like a kind of, yeah, maybe finality is a good word for me to kind of parse apart and consider that. I do think that that gets left out of the way that typically, you're told, you know that you're supposed to, you know, get, get sober, stop, stop drinking, whatever you're trying to do. And I just think, you know, maybe that again, I'm not trying, I'm not trying to bash, you know, a or anything. It works for a lot of people. It's just for me, it's, it's kind of like that leaves out so much of the amazing things that your mind can do. You know that, like, it's like, to me, what that feels like a lot of time is like, shut off your brain and just, you know, be very be a straight line, essentially, just be a straight line. And whatever you know, the goal you're trying to accomplish is going to just you. It's like a certain kind of submission that just doesn't make a lot of sense to me, but that there is something about really feeling into the kind of the weird dynamics that go on like in your head, and allowing your head to do what it's going to do, but not having the some of the fixated quality to it, or something like that, that allows you To get to more of that place of acting acting in a way that is incorporating um, that sort of more heartful, heartfelt um, trying to think of the right word there that I want to use, just yeah, that Um dimension, to me, it's like you're missing an if you just want to be a straight arrow, you're going to miss an entire dimension of, uh, what you could be bringing in.
Josh Lavine 1:54:12
Well, thank you very much. Thanks for doing this and thank you. Yeah, okay, thank you for tuning into my conversation with Mar. If you liked this conversation, then please click the like button or hit subscribe. If you're watching on YouTube, or if you're listening to this as a podcast, then you can leave up to a five star review that is a free and very effective way to support me and this show and the work that we do at The Enneagram School. If you're curious about the Enneagram and what we do at The Enneagram School, then I would love for you to come check us out at our website, thenegramschool.com you can get on our email list, which is where we announce new episodes just like this, as well as when we've got when we're going to do retreats and workshops and other courses and things of that nature. And while you're on the website, you can also browse other interviews that we've done just like this, with a bunch of different types and instinctual stackings. And also. You can check out our intro course, where we lay out all of the basic concepts about what makes the Enneagram, the Enneagram, and do deep dives on each of the types. If you think that you would be a good candidate to be interviewed on the show, then I would love to hear from you. You can contact me through the contact form at the Enneagram school.com let me know what type you are and preference very, very strongly goes to people who have been officially typed by the typing [email protected] who has, in my view, the world's most accurate Enneagram typing service. You can check them out at their website, their typing services, as well as their members area, where you can watch them type celebrities in real time. Finally, this show what it's like to view is part of a larger community of collaborators and creators. I want to also plug our sister podcast sincesomnia, which is where the Dream Girls explore the relationship between the unconscious and dreams and the Enneagram, as well as a new podcast called House of Enneagram, which is a kind of collective roof that we're all living under, exploring how the Enneagram applies as a lens to art and politics and pop culture and current events and things of that nature, as well as just exploring different corners of the Enneagram that haven't been explored before. So all of the links to all of this stuff will be in the show notes. Go check it out, and that is it for me. Thank you very much, and I will see you next time
Unknown Speaker 1:56:14
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