Cass 0:00
But like, the core of my being, right? That's like, I'm like, That's why, when people are like, Oh, you can be a gut type. I was like, I'm a gut type. I don't know what the fuck that type is. I'm a gut type, though, because it'll feel like, like I'm fine china or crystal, where it's like, if you, if you put a hand on me, everything's gonna spider crack and just fall and there will be this loss of self that I then I how do I find myself and bring it back together again? Right? Like that? That's how I see myself.
Josh Lavine 0:31
Welcome to another episode of what it's like to be you. I'm Josh Levine, your host, and on this show, I interview accurately typed guests about their experience as their Enneagram type Today, my guest is Cassandra Carroll cast for short, and Cas is a self pro social nine, wing eight with seven, wing eight and two and three fixes. So that's 972, triple positive, tri fix. And Cas is hilarious. This conversation is very high energy, and I want to just say up front part of the whole investigative focus of this conversation was how big and robust Cass energy is, and at the same time how careful and non disruptive she's trying to be with her environment. So she got she got eight on eight, wing underline fix. She's got seven wing eight and then two and three. So those are really big energy fixes kind of encompassed in a nine package, and so all this hugeness of energy coming out, but at the same time not trying to ruffle feathers or hurt people or disrupt the environment and all that kind of stuff. So that was a really interesting push pull dynamic in this conversation. And also want to point out that Cass has capital T trauma in her history, but also as a triple positive type. The way that she discusses that history is sort of almost fun and even flippant and loose, but it doesn't diminish the seriousness and the severity of what she went through, but at the same time, she does carry with her a sense of inner fragility that she has worked to strengthen, and her journey of what she's done to strengthen that like watch really intense moves that resonate with her traumatic past, was fascinating to me, and kind of spoke to a core body sensor theme of testing my strength and endurance and growing into my capacity to handle the world. Finally, the Cass's relationship story is absolutely wild, starting from a place of deep religiosity and kind of youthful immaturity, and then getting married to a man. I'll save the details, because they're just so juicy, but then later getting divorced and losing her religion, and the whole kind of attachment story underneath all of that, as well as the classic stuff around leaving one's religion and, you know, et cetera. So a lot of really interesting stuff here, specifically around the bigness of Cass's energetic presence, and how, on the surface, it'd be hard to tell that she was a nine up front. So if you want to learn more about type nine or the Enneagram, then please come check us out at the Enneagram school.com. You can read everything about the Enneagram there, and also check out more interviews just like this, and check out our intro course. And without further ado, I'm very excited for you to learn from Cass I'd love to start by asking you about your friend that you brought with you today.
Cass 3:23
Oh, in my Oh, just my fiance. I'm
Speaker 1 3:26
talking about oh, oh yeah, that,
Cass 3:28
yeah, I literally told my kids. I was like, I'm getting this in the in the video, like, I'm getting the Yeti in. So what is the support Yeti is the squishmallow they're called squishmallows. They feel like marshmallows. And me and my kids started, we started collecting them, like, a few years back, and like, I saw this one, and I needed it in my life. Green's my favorite color. And
Josh Lavine 3:55
it's, it feels, feels like your type. It's like, that's, it's self press nine, right? It's hippie, it's no but it's also the rainbow. There's something seven about it too, just like the randomness of a Yeti, you know? Yeah,
Cass 4:11
yes, the seven fixes, I feel like, is strong when you're a nine, it's so it's so much more expansive than nine. So I feel like you can always tell when someone has a seven fix if they're a nine,
Josh Lavine 4:25
yeah. Well, I think this is where I want to start, because I think that you have, you have just so much energy as a nine. I mean, huge energy as a nine.
Cass 4:35
Yeah, I got mistake constantly before enneagrammer,
Josh Lavine 4:39
I know, and even it's, um, I almost wonder if this, if you have the most possible energies in nine, just Typologically. So if nine, wing Eight, seven, wing eight, and then two wing three, would two
Cass 4:51
wing one make it more, though, because I feel like I'd be left because chewing three, I don't know. I mean, maybe because there's the that's double image, instead of. Image body. But I don't know
Josh Lavine 5:02
you could argue that with a three fix, you'd, you'd have this an extra assertive kick. So, but, but the thing about it is that you're so interpersonal, you know, like when, when we
Cass 5:13
need I'm like, You're right, exactly personal.
Josh Lavine 5:17
You yes, you're, you're, you're often checking in on me. You're making sure is everything okay for you. It's just, it's like whoa. Just your gaze is too, you know? And there you go. Your teach. Okay?
Cass 5:29
I teach and I teach teenagers, and I teach them at 15 years old, and it's a 30 hour course that they have to do to be able to get their permit.
Josh Lavine 5:38
So let's start. So you teach drivers, Ed,
Cass 5:42
yeah. Oh, I mean, so Okay, so I run an I run a business. My family has owned multiple driving schools, so I've been a driving instructor since I was 20 years old. I'm 41 now. Oh, no, you know, I'll be 41 I'll be 41 in July. I'm 40. I'm 40. So they, I've listened to a lot of things on Enneagram, and they talk about the two fix being able to, kind of, like, it's always trying to, like, get, get deep inside of you, you know, kind of thing. And I think that that's where some of this comes. Obviously two fixes are not like, three fixes more common. So leaving things to just, oh, as long as it's like efficient or going well, I mean, I don't know. I'm not a three so or three fix. I don't know, but I have a pretty strong desire to, whether it's healthy or not, know the inside of someone, know the secrets of someone like and because I felt so unknown. I don't want I don't especially teenagers. I deal with a lot of teenagers, they're going through all that emotional turmoil, and I, without even knowing it, I positioned myself almost like a therapist. It's like I remember being a teenager. I have not lost that there is that innocence? Well, even eight, double EIGHT, there's innocence there too. So it's like I do quickly, like, pick up on things where I'm like trauma. I understand trauma, because I have it too, you know, like you're seen now, and that was such a help. The more I was seen, the more I was vocal. It was so healing for me. So I do that. But like, as I've learned more on the Enneagram, or I recognize that I can do that without someone's permission. A four fixed person, unless you're extremely close to them, is not going to it's going to be viewed as an attack. So I try to be much more cognizant of that. Now, you know, like as I as I've gone, you know, as I've aged and learned, I do, but I check in a lot. It's also anxiety and stuff.
Josh Lavine 7:49
I just, since you brought it up, maybe we go there now, but you mentioned trauma as a kid, yeah. Are you okay to talk about that? Yeah, yeah. And that's just how you reacted, because there's so much. I mean, the reason I go there is just because it's so the way we're yet, the way we react to our circumstances, says so much about our type. Yeah, so can you just
Cass 8:09
younger you are too, I think makes such a difference, because it's more evident how you cope. So, yeah, I have, I have significant trauma, but it wasn't, constant. So I think that's why I was, like, I can't I've come out of trauma, like, I guess, with less damage. I mean, the damage is there internally, and there's a process and all that stuff. But I mean, I've had, I had I had sexual abuse trauma, I had some physical and like mental abuse as well, just because, well, I mean, okay, so as a younger person, I you know your your your brain doesn't fully understand so you internalize everything and make it about yourself, right? And then, as you get older, you sort of realize that it was like, I feel like the internal monolog of a lot of people that have experienced significant childhood trauma, and I think that this is common, because I talk to a lot of people about these things, is that it feels like something about you, you're marked, and that anyone who's abusive can smell that smell or that or see that mark on you or whatever, and that they constantly find you. That's like, you know, like, that's like the internal for a lot of people, especially young girls, but I'm sure young boys, because we don't even touch trauma with young boys at the time. It's hidden, it's they, it it's worse for them. Um, so, oh, I'm losing my train of thought because it's this stuff. But yeah, so, I mean, i i A nine wing. Eight, I hid myself away, and I created a total different personality structure on the outside. And I now looking back, I'm a I was aware of the fact that I did not present what I felt was the real me from a very young age. I mean, like five or six years old, like I already was aware of, like, okay, so like, Mulan, the Disney movie came out, and Christina Aguilera saying this banger is, like, when will my reflection show who I am inside? I fucking wrote that in lipstick on the mirror of my room, because it was like, none of you know, none of you will ever know. Like, really, I want to be so nine. I want to be curled up under 18 blankets with my favorite book, away from the world, just hidden away. I don't want to be away from people, because I'm pretty social person. But, like, I could be in the other room where I can hear them, but I don't have to even participate. And then the outward presenting Cassandra was very much seven wing eight, you know, like, if you would think of a child, how you'd think a seven wing eight would be, that would have been me, you know, like I was loud, I was boisterous, I was funny, I was aggressive. I was aggressive, because I realized pretty quickly in life that, like, if you present aggressive, then people don't realize that you're actually a little marshmallow inside that can be ripped apart and destroyed, and they don't talk with you as much. Yeah,
Josh Lavine 11:31
okay, there's so much here, all right. First of all, yeah, it's, you know, it's, it's, it would be almost, it would be difficult to sense your nineness, just like on first boom, meaning you, because you present with, I don't give it to you. Yeah, you present with so much, uh, solidity and force. But everything you just said you're like fantasy dream is to be under 18 blankets with your book and your coziness. That's That's all self pressed nine plus, yes, this thing about,
Speaker 1 12:01
oh, sorry,
Josh Lavine 12:02
Dr Pepper. Oh, that's no, that's fine. You can drink on camera. You're
Cass 12:07
my obsession. Oh, good.
Josh Lavine 12:08
Okay, it's, it's also, you know, you're triple positive, you know, 972, and you've mentioned that being triple positive allows you to appear extremely open and fun and light and positive and whatever, while hiding a lot of yourself from others. And yeah, even from a young age, you are kind of ignoring, suppressing and hiding. This is something you wrote. Was you, you hid things to keep from bothering others.
Cass 12:38
Oh, yeah, yeah, because as a nine you don't want anything, anything that you bring to maybe the triple positive, to to to upset the apple cart, to bother someone, to you don't like. It's like you're just so aware of and maybe a nine without so like an so blind nine might not feel that. And if I had, if I had type structures that allowed me to think that pain is good, or that, like, you know, I mean, like, I've had to learn that, like, going back to hard things, I've had to, like, harness three, you know, like the nine line to three to to to do things just because of the like, seven doesn't want you to be sad. Two doesn't want you to be sad. Nine doesn't want you to be sad, you know, or anyone to be that way. So it's, it's a lot of of thinking about other people, yes,
Josh Lavine 13:37
six or one plus. What I was thinking is, I've been thinking a lot about nine wing eight recently, just because there's something about let's see the juxtaposition of attachment and rejection in any sensor is interesting to me. So that's nine, wing eight, three, wing two, six, wing five. But with nine wing eight, it's like, I want to be I want to be open and receptive to the holding that's available in my in my environment. But when something kind of gets in that makes me wince, if you have a one wing, you fuss about that, you actually experience that wince, and you go fix it. But with an eight wing, you just cut off the sensation of it, you know. And so you erect that inner wall, yeah, because you have double EIGHT. You know, you have nine, eight and also seven, wing eight, yeah. I mean something you just said there. It's like you learned early that if you present with with force or that you're not going to be fucked with that. Yes, fuck with you. That's eight. That's eight, somatic baby. Yeah. And so
Cass 14:37
I can feel eight on people. It's so weird. Before I even knew the language of the Enneagram, I could feel okay. You know that, like, tick tock of like, I smell bitch, like I can, I can tell when someone is missing eight. I'm like, oh, oh, I can smell there's something here that's not Hate. Like. Well, I didn't know that's what it was, but like, God, get her. I get around. Like, one of my friends husbands was just so stereotypical eight, and I loved him because I was like, Oh, I get you. I get you. You're mad because this is a done. Cool, it's done. What's next? Like, Oh, you don't want me to talk like, I have a lot of I have some sort of fictive sixes, assertive fixes around me. My stepdads a three, my mom is a seven, so not there's not a ton of eight, but it's like, I don't know. I do I'm very comfortable around eight. Eights feel so comfortable. But also it's because I can meld myself to them. So I don't know if a prolonged eight, you know, like because they can, obviously, they get whatever they want most of the time. So, like, I feel like, in maybe, like a romantic relationship, an eight would probably just dominate the hell out of me most of the time.
Josh Lavine 15:54
Possibly, have you? Have you ever dated an eight? No,
Cass 15:57
no. My ex husband was a six wing seven, and he's like, 694, like he's super whiny tears, and also okay, like he struggles with attachments and narcissism and stuff. And then my partner that I was after I got divorced, I was with a partner who was seven and very so blind and super toxic, the devil, you could call him. And I am with a nine right now. It's a nine on nine relationship, so it's super chill. Yeah, I mean, there's good, there's good and bad with that, right? Like, because two people of the same, and then, because I have such a huge understanding of nine, I'm like, Oh, of course you're doing that. Oh, of course I'm thinking this. Oh, of course, we both. We both completely walk away, because we never want to argue, like
Josh Lavine 16:44
it's, yeah, there's that, can we go in the direction of your divorce and just the whole, just the whole circumstances that led up to that, and just, can you just tell us about what that relationship was like, and then, yeah, just, that's quite a story. So
Cass 17:00
Well, well, it's a good thing that we talked about trauma, because my, my relationship with my ex husband was definitely came from that. So well, not came from that. But, I mean, it's evident in the fact that we have a 13 year age gap. I was 18 when I met him online. We were okay, so this is crazy. Oh, I don't know if how deep you want to go into the Lord. No. Into the lower No, all the way. Okay, you know, like, this is early internet days, right? I graduated in oh two, so this was, was this oh two? This? No, I met him in Oh, oh three or oh four. Okay, so I was young. I was 18, um, so I had to been oh two, whatever. I'm old now, so I forget
Speaker 1 17:40
dates, but he was 3131
Cass 17:44
31 I had daddy issues. Oh, do I have daddy issues? Yeah, my preference was immediately older, like, from a teenager. And I'm sure it's trauma based. It's looking for the father who molested me. So like, you know, there's just, yeah, yeah. Like, I was like, 14 years old, obsessed with Brad Pitt in seven, who was like, Wait, like, 34 and a piece of shit.
Speaker 1 18:10
Okay, okay, that's my type.
Josh Lavine 18:12
Wait before you get before you go into the story, I just, I have to comment on your your vibe as you're talking about this. Because sometimes when they talk about their trauma, have a kind of, you know, slothful Lugo priest, this poor me happened to me thing, and with triple positive, it is just like, it's like fireworks going off as you're describing these things that happen. And I'm sure there's been a lot of processing, of course, but yes, at the same time, at the same time, there's this just like, fun, soda pop, yeah, energy about it, you know,
Cass 18:44
yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, well, because especially I'm, I'm, if we were one on one and having, like, a super intimate conversation, I would handle this differently. I am being a social second. I am aware that there is an audience, and I don't know if that, I'm sure part of it is that too, you know, but it's also number, yeah, totally have dealt with, I mean, at 16 is when I, like, got wasted and told a friend that this had happened to me, and they told my parent, my mother. So, I mean, I didn't deal with it at all. I didn't know I had it. I didn't know anything even fully happened. Well, I knew the things that happened afterwards, but the original incident that would have started the cycle of trauma. I didn't know it happened till I was 11, when it happened again. And then I realized that all these nightmares I was having weren't nightmares. They were they were memories, you know, because all of all of my, yeah, yeah, all of my, all of my, and then I'm smiling. I'm like, yeah, right,
Josh Lavine 19:55
exactly. That's what I'm saying. That's what it's this
Cass 19:59
is why I can walk. Like, melancholia by Lars von Trier, and be like, it was good, I get it, but, but no, like, so once I real, you know, it was like from 11 to 16, I kept that completely hidden. How I mean, that is nine wing eight, I would say, right, like, yeah. Could you tell Hell yeah? You could tell I was piercing every part of my body, stretching my ears, getting, I mean, I had every fucking hair color you could name. I was obsessed with corns first album, which is literally all about his trauma of being sexually abused. Like, wow, okay, oh yeah. Like, I mean, it was there, but I have a seven, probably damn near triple positive herself, or DJ, I'm not sure, mother who you know, like when I told her, and this is, this is my type structure, too, right? She's like, my mom is wonderful. So I, you know, like, I want to clarify that, but like when I told her, like, one of the first things she said was, like, out of all my kids, I never would have thought you because of your behavior, because, like, You're so happy and bubbly and gregarious, you have all these friends, you can do all this stuff. And my brothers are withdrawn, you know, like they when they were younger, at least, you know, they just hide in their their bedrooms and play video games all day. You know, I think, yeah, that the morose depression that's evident, you know, she just thought that it would be there, you know. And my mother doesn't have trauma in her past like that. So when you're not someone who visits, who's experienced that yourself, you're not looking for those things in your children. I'm constantly monitoring everyone's kids for that. That's probably the two wing three as well. Like, I'm like, oh, yeah, you know, like, Oh, you're switching everything about yourself. Oh, you're into this thing. Oh, you're, you know, anything you start, your child starts bedwetting for how long when you know, like, I, you know, like, and I've raised my kids that way too. Um, I try to be, like, not weird about it, you know, they're pretty cool. But, like, but like, I mean, I am hyper aware. And my ex husband also was a victim of multiple issues in his childhood, too. So when he we came into our marriage, we both kind of that was one where, one place where we clicked was like protecting our kids. We totally got off the topic of my actual relationship.
Josh Lavine 22:18
Well, I want to get no I want to get back there, but I want to just comment on this, because there's this, your story, and your your whole thing. It makes me kind of double down on my opinion that we are not our type is not the results of what happens to us. Our type is the way we respond, not just nurture. There's Yeah, there, yeah, that's right, there's a nature component, type, yeah, yeah, yes, nurture. Nurture has to do with, like, your environment, obviously, has to do with what level of health you stabilize that, and the way that you express your type and your relationship. But you know how resiliency
Cass 22:54
level I feel like, yeah, probably type based, you know, like, nines are fragile, that nine's gonna be so fragile, and resiliency can be hard. And I don't think, I don't think that some types struggle at all with that, you know, like they're just like, oh, this shit happened. Like,
Josh Lavine 23:15
yeah. Do you see yourself as resilient? Resilient or no?
Cass 23:19
Okay, so I see myself as less resilient than other people see me, right? So and then, and maybe it's because of the like, joie de vivre, whatever type of way I just kind of see things is, it's like, I tell them things, right? And this is normal for people with trauma too, where it's like, and they'll just be like, horrified, or like, Wow, you're really incredible. Like, I, I did not want to be in a hospital system for my last two births. I had my babies at home, my one of them I had alone, which was me, my husband and my mom. And it's just like, people are like, this is incredible. And it's like, this is what I knew in my fucking soul I wanted to do, and I did it. I don't, you know. Like, I don't know, I don't know, but I don't, I don't. I think I'm fragile and breakable, and I think that sometimes I am holding on by like, a little edge of sanity, even though I've never actually experienced, like a like a psychotic, like, I've never had that happen, but like the feeling of, I've explained it to a therapist, like, if I am, like, overly emotional or overly hormonal at, you know, times it will feel like, like, my, my, I guess, I mean, you'd say brain, but I mean to me, I think of myself because I'm I think it's got like, I think of myself as a soul, not just like, you know, I Don't think of myself. My brain is sometimes my enemy, you know, but like, the core of my being, right? That's like, I'm like, That's why, when people are like, Oh, you can be a gut type. I was like, I'm a gut type. I don't know what the fuck gut type is. I'm a gut type, though, because that is where, I mean, that's where I feel whatever, but like, it'll. Feel like, like I'm fine china or crystal, where it's like, if you, if you put a hand on me, everything's gonna spider crack and just fall and there will be this loss of self that I then I, how do I find myself and bring it back together again? Right? Like that. That's how I see myself. Other people do not see me that way. Most of the time, I would say,
Josh Lavine 25:25
I that's amazing to hear you say that, because that's, I mean, it's certainly not how I'm seeing you. But I get, I it's, it's interesting, like, this inner sense of fragility.
Cass 25:35
Yeah, that, yeah, yeah. Like, like it. I try to push. I, like, I've learned that it's like, sometimes I maybe withdrawing is the right thing, but like, I try to push now into those things because, like, I've learned I used to my ex husband, specifically the movie precious, which obviously is a very fucked up movie about horrific trauma done by parents. And he was like, why are you watching that movie? You know it's just gonna, like, destroy you. And it was like, I couldn't explain to him why I had to watch it and why I literally walked around my house for like, seven days, just like disassociated, mentally destroyed from that movie, but that I needed to It was years later, probably six or seven years later, when I was at that time, I was taking antidepressants, mild ones, Wellbutrin. It's, you know, like I get seasonal affective disorder, and I realized that I could handle some of those movies, and that if I could handle them, I actually could almost use them as therapy, like I could almost, you know, like I could access those parts of myself that are really devastated you're you're devastated by the fact that someone is supposed to love you more than anything and sports and protect you sees you as nothing than an object to be used and discarded. Like, that's a very hard thing like that. I mean, I could, this is where, like, I can, like, I'm, like, if I get here, I'm, you're gonna get me. I will cry, because it's like, that's just that is, that is my core wounded, you know, is like, no, like, you are nothing, you're you're nothing to be, you know, I don't know, but I did. I can now push into some of that stuff, and I see it as, like, a good thing, if it's done in a careful way.
Josh Lavine 27:41
Okay, there's something so powerful about what you're saying here, and I think it's body centered as well, because there's you're carrying around this this internal sense of fragility, like you're doing this super tight Wire Act, and you're this precious crystal, and just just the right amount of pressure could crack the whole thing. Yeah, just done. But, um, historically, you have found yourself drawn to these things that were the cause of what broke you.
Cass 28:10
Oh yes and yes. And I think it's very common for trauma survivors too. Absolutely,
Josh Lavine 28:13
it is absolutely. And actually, I have, I have a little bit of my own version of this with like, I'm sort of attracted to the scenes of, or like, I like to go back to, sometimes the classrooms where I know that I cheated, you know, in academic work three and i three weeks. Yeah, no, I'm serious. And I go and I sit and I sit and I'm and I'm and I kind of am there in the space where I abandoned myself. And there's something really healing. It's very hard for me to go back, but something really powerful and healing about that for me. Yeah, and
Cass 28:43
feels guilt. Do you feel guilt about cheating?
Speaker 1 28:47
Is that the little head up there, I had
Cass 28:50
three and nine doesn't give a shit?
Josh Lavine 28:52
Oh yeah, it does. Well,
Cass 28:53
you know, you're right, you're right, yeah,
Josh Lavine 28:56
but it's like, Well, what I mean is it's, it's like, these days I have, like, a very, very intense relationship with integrity. And yes, and it's because of how far I abandoned myself earlier, you know, yeah, and so,
Cass 29:14
and that's the whole part. So it's part of forgiveness for you in some ways, maybe absolutely, yeah, but,
Josh Lavine 29:19
but yeah, this, this, I think the overall point I'm making here is that it's like being drawn back to these, these moments that have been difficult, or like you watching the movie precious. There's something about it feels to me like there's something about the body center testing its own strength. It's like, I think I'm strong enough for this. Now, you know, yes, yes. And I don't think this is gonna can, I don't think this is gonna break me. And there's something it feels like winning you can Yes. It feels like okay, like yes, I maybe I was brokered, but this, but I'm but I conquered, I conquered this.
Cass 29:53
And it's not gonna this, it's not gonna be yes, you know, it's not gonna be me anymore. Yeah, well, especially because for. Like, I'm pretty super ego less and like, if the majority of my try fix so, like, I don't, and I don't have, like, the three I have is, like, my last little wing, I have no desire, like, to win. Like, okay, I'm five foot 10, and I went to a private Christian school, so they were just like, you have to play volleyball. And like, I was good at it, because I'm five for 10, right? The second, like, I got two very three fixed, very aggressive girls who wanted to win. I quit. I was just like, Oh my God, dude, this is like, you are making this not fun. Or like, monopoly. I don't think I've ever finished a game of Monopoly. I don't care, like, I I've never cared about winning or being competitive in in that way. But, like, what you're describing that is, it's personal. SP, Dom too, probably, you know, like, it's like, this is my conquering, you know, like, I had a conversation with someone that was difficult for me, and I put boundaries down, like I am winning at life at this point, yeah, yeah, yeah, because there's a lot of self hatred involved in not you just had, was it? Kim would she was eight. She's an eight. And it was like, oh, hearing her say that, because it's like, my perception of eights is like, not like that. And I just don't, I've never met a female eight that I've that I've gotten close with, at least, you know, and so, but it was just like, really great to hear her say that. Because I'm like, Okay, I have a double eight week, so eight and me. What was the thing she was saying? Well, she said something about like, not like, like, I don't know if it was self hatred, but it was something along the like, that she beats herself up, right? And
Josh Lavine 31:49
something, oh, the self judgment that she has around, like, I let you in, yeah? Oh,
Cass 31:53
gosh, oh, my God, yes. Because, like, dude, if I there's something about there's so much pride for me, like in different things, and with nine so much of my pride is like, you know, you won't affect me, or, you know, like I, I can give you all of this, but like this, like this, 10% that's held back like, you'll never see that ever you'll never win. You know, that. So I would say I'm almost arrogant sometimes in my emotional control, and yet I'm super not emotionally controlled, but in the things that I that I don't want people to see, I'm extremely controlled about that. Okay,
Josh Lavine 32:35
there you go. That's that's a really interesting piece, right there, too. And I think there's a triple positive angle into this topic here, because there is so much you could say fun, I'm gonna use the word froth. It's like, there's like a frothy, like fun, Sparky fireworks kind of energy that can that you can display, and that is, in some ways, a smoke and mirror show that conceals these private inner chambers where the real fragility
Cass 33:09
is. Did you ever see Sopranos?
Josh Lavine 33:12
You know, I've watched the first episode, and I'm like, one of a very, very small number of people that couldn't quite get into it, but I'll give it another shot at some point. Yeah, it's so
Cass 33:20
good, yeah, but either way he talks about being the sad clown, and I was like, Oh man, I get you Tony, like, I understand. I am very aware when people want me to be on for them and they want me to be Yeah, I would imagine that. I don't know if seven maybe more nines with seven fixes. Think that then sevens, because you would think that the sad clown would almost be a seven ish type D, yeah, no,
Josh Lavine 33:47
I think I see, I see that in seven two, in a lot of ways. Well, I mean,
Cass 33:51
the constant Chase, that's one thing I will say. Like with my mom being a seven, it's like, no, you know, she's, she's, she will exhaust herself, you know, like pursuing anything, any anything, but actually living in a present moment. So I don't know, I don't know if she ever feels sadness. She won't let herself get there.
Josh Lavine 34:18
So okay, I'm tracking one thread, though. So we have this, this body centered theme of of testing and proving my own strength myself, through setting boundaries, through going back to the scene of where I where I have been broken, and seeing if I can, if I can handle it now, and that being a win, a private kind of inner conquering of something, yeah, yeah. And I just just kind of period, full stop, that's, I think that's a really powerful, I don't know, testimony to the like the journey of the body sensor, maybe, or a body center, sensibility around knowing and appreciating my own capacity to handle the world. I can handle whatever the world throws at me. You know, I'm not going to. Broken by this thing. And there's a paradox of, like, holding that inner sense of fragility and at the same time bringing yourself to watch that movie, for example, and and just kind of, yeah, there's just something like, cool about that, like, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna I'm gonna, like, I'm gonna watch this movie. Yes, I'm gonna dissociate for seven days, but at the same time, like, I do this for myself to know that I have this, yeah,
Cass 35:27
oh, yeah. But like it, you'll it'll do it less and less, you know? I mean, like, you will, there you go. That's right, harden in a positive way, right? Because, I mean, sometimes hardening is deadening, and I guess in some ways it is, but you're teaching your brain that those traumatic things are not there anymore, and that you are an autonomous human being. You have control. You have will, you know, like, and so you don't disassociate. You know, like, the first time, you might disassociate for seven days, but like, then, you know, like, you'll be able to well, and then also, like, I mean, I'm trying, I try to not, like torture porn myself, right? Like I can also, I can over do that, and basically want to feel shitty and just choose to put on this thing and just kind of like, roll around in the sad, in the depression. So they're like, that's the drawback of the balance, I guess, of doing something like that is, what's your motivation? Like, you know, but some of it is just natural, like, you know, like you said, like a lot of people, if they're processing their feelings, might choose to do those things, you know, like you even see, I know that this is but like, it's really common for women with trauma to have rape fantasies, you know, and then they feel extremely like judge for feeling that way. And it's like, it's completely normal. It's totally expected. You should not feel that way. That is something you're reclaiming, if in us, in essence or re traumatizing, and depending on where you're at. But it's like, yeah, I do think that the it can be really powerful.
Josh Lavine 37:17
Okay, I'm taking a breath. Sorry, sorry, no, no, no, that's good. I want to hold on to this thread, because I feel like the thread of the body center experiencing its own strength, and then go, kind of take that thread back into your story of your relationship, and then moving into your divorce.
Cass 37:32
Yeah, yeah. I think 25 year old me would have been pretty worse on this. I feel like there was so many, like, with religion and the marriage that I was in, those are together because, you know, when you're married and you're Christian, like, the reason you get married is because of Christianity, like, it's, they're together. I was so I'm so delusional number one, but I also, I would have not even if anyone would have said something that was going to infringe on my worldview, it would have been an immediate rejection, and it wouldn't have even been nasty, because I'm not like, I will just flit away and you'll just never see me again. Like, I don't, I don't say, I ghost. Like, I don't say I don't like, Oh, my God, let's sit. I don't have a lot of first Well, I mean, I'm seven. Is frustration. There's tons of frustration. But the wing of eight and then having that, like, it is a much of, like, No, we just, we just never have to talk
Josh Lavine 38:36
ever again. It's more just dull, cut off. Yeah, that's yeah.
Cass 38:40
So anyways, um, so I will get back to I'm gonna try to cut it like shortish. So yes, so me and my ex husband were both into a movie. I've always been a film kind of person, and it was The Boondock Saints, which was like a cult classic. Love them, though. Yeah, it's great. So we were on the original board of The Boondock Saints, where it was like, okay, so to be fair, I'm still, like, legitimately kicking online friends with all of those people from 20 years ago. Some of us have got married, had kids, like we were a very tight group. Troy, the director of Boondock Saints, was on there. Like, he interviewed for one of my friends podcast. He set up. We did a few. I didn't get to go to the Boston one, but the first one was in Boston. It was like a big meet up. This was 2004 2003 it was 2003 um, and then the second one was in Austin. Well, my ex husband lived in Houston at the time, and like, I had been talking to these guys for year and a half, I had, I had had to have knee surgery. I tore my meniscus, and I had knee surgery, and so I was stuck at home. I was never a person I have ADHD, so I was never a person who watched a lot of media before that, because I just my brain was moving too fast. I didn't give a shit. Or I read. Reading is not the same, you know. But I didn't consume TV media, really at all when I was younger. But I'm stuck. There can't move surgeries. And I find this board, I find this group of people like, and they're from all over. I've got friends from Australia, the Netherlands, Norway, like, and we're all like, we still kick it, like, it's not a lot. But, you know, it's a good vibe. But anyways, me and my ex started talking through there. I flew down to Austin. We met, and then I was in college at the time, blah blah, blah, blah, blah, we got Christian. So I was like, I prayed to God, and I asked him to give me a sign, and fucking, he called me the next day and asked me to marry him. That was a red flag, but I didn't know it. And I was like, oh my god, this is God's will. And got married, and then it was like, Oh, just Yeah, yeah. We were, we were, yeah, I mean, so, I mean, I guess it was, it took a little bit longer than that, but like, ultimately, you know, so it was like, we started dating in April. He, he moved here from Hugh. Well, we, I was living in Superior. I was going to UW superior, but like Duluth, Minnesota, Superior, Wisconsin, it's way the f up there. He moved here. Yeah, it was a lot. Then we moved to Houston. He was, he was a cop down there. But yeah, there's a huge age gap, 1831, i To be fair, I do say this because I just feel like it'd be shitty not to. I did not tell him I was 18, okay. I told him I was 25 I told oh, because I was an adult,
Josh Lavine 41:36
yeah. But also there, yeah, but there's some 78 stuff right there. That's, I mean, that's just like, I want to and I want self permission, like six, fix six. Fix probably doesn't say I'm I'm 25 if I'm 18, yeah, last girlfriend was
Cass 41:54
24 that he'd never date anyone younger than that. And I was like, I happen to be 25 I felt really guilty afterwards and within, like, I'd say, a month of us talking, I was like, I have to talk to you. And he was just like, okay, because this was long distance at the time, and this was like, new like, this was like, you know, you're gonna get killed, long distance type shit, because this was,
Josh Lavine 42:20
and I'm sorry, just, I don't know if I keep this in, but just, just for my own clarity, yeah, he asked you to marry him without meeting.
Cass 42:27
Oh, no, no. We had, no, no no, we had, we had met. We had, yeah, no, no, we had. So you met twice, yeah. But,
Speaker 1 42:35
like, okay, okay, this is, this is
Cass 42:36
why it's like, you're such a stupid 18 year old girl. You know it's like, I he had, he had broken up with me. We had met, we had, like, I had flown there twice, and he had flown here once, and and had spent time together, you know. And we've been talking for about, I'd say, nine. It was under a year when he asked me to marry him. He had broken up with me because he was just like, basically, like, you know, you've got so much going on in your life. You know, you're young. You should, you know, I mean, like, we should be apart and didn't talk to me for like, a month or six weeks, which I was, like, dying in agony because I was so obsessively psychotically co dependently unhinged, in love with with a lie, but still. So then it was like, I'm dying inside. I'm praying to God every single night, because I'm like, just take the take away how I feel. Like, why? Well, like, if we're not going to be together, like, Why? Why can't I just get over this, you know? Like we're done. And it was like, There's a story in the Bible about Gideon. Do you know the story of the of Gideon? I don't. Okay, so you, if you guys ever want, like, the good version of it, there's a Veggie Tales of Gideon. So you can watch the vegetables version, which is way better than the Bible. But, okay, the story of Gideon is, he's too afraid. God is like, go fight this battle. And he's like, I'm scared. And God's like, it's alright to be scared. And I love this story. It's my favorite story in the Bible, and I don't even believe in whatever. Okay, so he's like, I'm, I'm gonna, I'm gonna give you proof, so that way you don't gotta be scared. So like, you're gonna go and you're gonna put out this thing, and it's a lambs it's lambs wool. So basically, there's not gonna be any dew on the lamb's wool, but there's gonna be do all around and you're gonna know that, that I want you to do this, and that you're gonna win. So he does it, and God does that. And he's like, God, I'm still scared. And he's like, Okay, I'm gonna let you have another one. It's okay to be afraid. Like, I'm gonna, I'm, we're gonna, I'm gonna show you again that, like, this is what you're supposed to do. And he's like, you're gonna put it out there. He goes, tomorrow, the lambskin will be covered with it'll be drenched with water, but the whole ground will be dry. And that happened, Gideon went murdered and slaughtered everybody, because that's what the Bible in the beginning is about. And God was super happy for all the murder. And so when I was praying, I was like, God, you know, like. So if this is meant to be like, I need I need proof. I need to be like, Gideon, you need to give me this sign, you know, like, that's why I say, like, 972 is delusional, especially if you're raised in a culture where, like, all this, anything can have meaning, and anything can this, it's like, yeah, you could fucking destroy your life if you follow all these things. So he called me the next day, and he was just like, I can't stand to be without you, you know, like, I want you to be my wife. Will you marry? And I was just like, Oh, my God, this Oh yeah, yeah, dude, that's why. Like, that's why I say my marriage and religion together. They started together, they started together, and they had to end together.
Josh Lavine 45:41
That's incredible. And so how, how long are you married?
Cass 45:44
13 and a half years.
Josh Lavine 45:47
Okay, see, but that's quite a time. Yeah, oh, four children.
Cass 45:50
Yeah. Four children.
Josh Lavine 45:52
Yeah. Okay, okay, so your so your marriage, your marriage began based on this religion, the fulfillment of what
Cass 46:01
you felt like, love and loneliness. I'd say love and loneliness, you know, like, yeah, truly on both sides. Probably, I'd say,
Josh Lavine 46:12
so what happened?
Cass 46:16
Well, it happened immediately, immediately, the moment I was married, the person who I was married to was like, a different person. I mean, I like, you wait for you're thinking, you know, like, oh, marriage, the responsibility that just changed him. Like, he's gonna, you're gonna, he's gonna find that funny, caring, loving guy again, like, no, no, no, no, no. The funny, loving, caring guy was the trap to to think, the to find someone who could even handle to live with this, I mean, and then it's like, it's all gonna fade away. So no, it was like, instantaneous. I'm a super happy go lucky person. And like, when I met him. He had a large friend group, and was very outgoing. He was hilarious. He told just super funny jokes. I mean, it was just like, night and day. He was mute. I mean, there. I mean, it was no speaking, no, it was just other than, because he's a six, it's like, He that the constantly he would, like, trap me in like, conversations, not like, physically, it'd be like, I want to talk about this. I have anxiety about it, so either talk about it 75 more times, you have to fully engage me, present with me while talking about this bullshit. I'd be like, I can't. It's the same. We're saying the same words over and over and over. Why the fuck do we have you already made your decision or you didn't? I don't give a fuck at this point. I don't care. Why. Why do we have to con i It was, it was like torture. My torture was so bad, just a very deeply insecure person. He He was a police officer. So that job is not a good job for someone who is who is extremely fearful and who is deeply insecure. I think that that probably, I think my ex husband is at his heart is, is someone who wants to be of use, and he would have been much better if he would have went into like, EMT actually, right now, what he does for a living is he's like a 911, operator person for a private ambulance service up where we live here near Milwaukee.
Josh Lavine 48:36
You're, yeah, sorry, you're, you're, I would say, I guess what I'm getting from the story is kind of your, frustration with that pattern of being trapped in those 75 repeated conversations. But that was stayed, but this, oh, yeah,
Cass 48:51
oh, I stayed because, you know, I mean, marriage is forever, yeah. Like, God, God, right, right, what God has put together. No man can tear us under. That's why. I mean, well, also, okay, so, like, also, I didn't just stay for that. I stayed because, like, I loved him. Like, I love, I love, like, deeply and intensely. Yeah, I wouldn't like his whole thing with being a six was loyalty. He He saw my nine behavior as disloyal, because I wouldn't immediately come to his side. So his arguments all the time were that I was disloyal to him, and it was like, I want you to be the best version of yourself. You're telling me about a situation where you had a negative social interaction, and I'm telling you how this person, this is before Enneagram. It's just because of who I am, and I've always been obsessed with psychology and psychoanalytics. But like, I'm like, I'm telling you, you know, like, these are the three reasons why they might have said this. And these are a couple things that you could have said, I fully support you. That was, I was like, No, you're a fucking liar. You don't you're you. If you did, you would have backed me. You never would say that about me. You would never do this. And it was just like, dude, like, yeah. I and I told him, when I got divorced, I was like, the you don't like me. You like all of the things I do. You like our life, you like our children, our marriage and all of these things, but like at the core, all the things that everybody else loves about me, that that I bring to the table, that that I get told consistently I get told, that's why it's like, I don't have the nine thing of like, not like. I get told, You're really great, you're really fun, you're really you don't mean like, I so it's like, How can everyone else say these things? And I'm in a marriage with someone who fucking despises my literal life. I didn't realize it was part of him was just deep jealousy and projection. I didn't know, you know now I know that, like, I was like, Okay, I'm in a marriage with someone, but like, I can't leave because religion doesn't allow that, and honestly, I'm terribly afraid i I'm a stay at home mom to my kids. I do not want them to have to leave my side ever, because that allows other people to harm them. So I don't really want to leave a marriage, because I don't want my children to have to have their lives changed, even though there were a lot of negatives, financially, he was a mess. He was extremely verbally and emotionally abusive, but he also never was there. He had an incredibly psychotic work ethic, which meant that he was gone all the time, working 12 hour shifts and stuff. So it was like, okay, he's a piece of shit sometimes, but he's not there and I can take care of my children, you know. SP, Dom to fix it's like, you can literally roadmap it in people's lives if you're looking for it, because it's like their type tells you who they are and how they're going to behave in some ways, you know, um, but yeah, like, I if it wasn't for the fact that, because, okay, because, you know, because I told you our marriage ended when, um, he wanted to transition into Becoming a woman, which he has not chosen to do. But that was the end, and it was I, I, I feel like whenever you caveat things be like, I love gay people, I love trans people, it's like, bull fucking shit, but like, I really do so like, the catalyst for him coming out was my friend's kid, who was my babysitter at the time, had came out to me privately. And I think me supporting that child who I fucking adore, and he's like, super happy and has a great life, and things are way good with his family now, which is awesome, because it would have been bad, you know, if it wasn't, would have sucked, but like, that was the entrance point for him, I think so I'd spent my whole marriage being like, I would tell my best friend this. I'd be like, it's almost like he's jealous of me. Like it's like it would feel that way, but it's like, that's crazy. Why would a heterosexual man be jealous of a heterosexual woman? Like, of what, you know, like, you have her, you have all of her, you know, she made you fucking children. Like, what could you be? What could you be jealous of? But it felt like, it felt like, like, like, yeah, like, oh, I look really cute. He's gonna shit on me. I like, I it's just, you know, and so then it was like, he, it took him a couple of months to fully come out, but from January to April of 2016 that was, that was him being like, I'm bi. And I was like, Did you cheat on me? And he was like, No, I'm like, well, then I don't give a shit if you're bi. Like, that's fine. Like, you do you like, in our like, you know? I mean, like, unless the talk would be, like, opening up our marriage, or even like, or seeing someone like, other than that, like, him being bisexual didn't change the way I felt about him. So then it was like, you know, it was like, his tippy toes. He was tippy toeing around it, you know? So I see, yeah, yeah. By April, it was, I want to live as a woman. I want the surgery, I want everything. And I was like, devastated. And then I was like, so how does this work? And he's just like, What do you mean? And I'm like, I am I'm hetero. Like, I can't, I can't, I don't. I'm not attracted to women. So like, what are we going to do? And I just, I am a very much live your truth kind of person, and I it's and I don't want to control people, you know, like, at all. That's why I knew that there had to be, like, an absence of six in me and like, or like even one, because it's like, I don't have it's even hard for me to discipline. Like children. I don't really do discipline. I do more like discourse and then exchange, like, you know, like I don't love anytime I have to infringe on someone, or, you know, anything like that. Like it's, it's really the antithesis of who I am. I hate it.
Speaker 1 54:57
Okay? I. You,
Cass 55:01
I'm sorry, just
Josh Lavine 55:05
one second. Just, all right, hold on, one second. Okay, so, all right, okay, so, yeah, okay, so we have this, no, it's okay. It's okay. I have to say one thing, you know, it's your, you know, as a body type with, with sort of the double EIGHT wing thing plus seven. There's just this, like, it's like, you can, kind of, like, get on a on a train track, you know, like, and just like, barrel forward. And one of the things I'm wondering about is, actually, let me think about how to say this here,
Cass 55:43
Emma said something like that too. Like, he was talking about a nine wing eight versus an eight. And he said that, like, because I think it was Megan, thee stallion, who did it, but I noticed that I did it too in my interview that we talked about we had to put on the bad bitch energy. Like, it's like, it's like, oh yeah, I'll gear up to this. And it's right, I do that. Like, I was like, oh, yeah, no, I totally get that. That is, that is, it's there, but it's not, that's not the core of our being. It's to the side. You had to poke at that to get that. You unleash it, yeah, that's right, right? It's hot lava. You know, everyone's getting sprayed, but, you know,
Josh Lavine 56:23
but also I just, I'm trying to track. I'm trying to track, and that was a good example of it too. Like I'm trying to track the underlying, I'm actually trying to follow, find where you are in the story. Because I'm hearing, I obviously, there's a lot about your husband, and I know that it was lighting of hiding. Let's see, probably
Cass 56:41
my focus was, I mean, I'd say mostly on my kids that, you know, like, most of Yeah, like, and not in a for me, not in a negative way. It was positive. Like, I mean, it's the one thing I mourn about getting a divorce, even though I know it's the right thing. Talk to my kids, and they've, you know, like, because we've had discourses about this, you know, like, how do you feel five years out? Like, do you still how are you and, and, you know, like, my kids are like, no, like, this was the right decision. It's like, okay, I just, yeah, I made this decision for all of us. And, and that's unfortunate that you guys were not at the age to where you could, you know fully, and so it's like, that's why I check in. I remember my ex probably four or five months after my first son was born. He was like, What do you want to do? You know? He's like, I'll support you. He's like, you know, if you want to go back to school, you know, if you what you what do you want to do? You know, because we originally talked about staying home. And I was like, I think he at that time, you know, we were younger, and he was probably still more in love with me, so he was nicer than and so I was like, you know, he's like, I want you to, you know, I want you to have choice in what you do. And I was just like, I love this child, and I don't want to ever leave him and I don't want to do anything. And he was like, really? I was like, yeah, like, I don't, I can't, I don't want to leave him for five seconds. It was, it was unhealthy, obsessive, psychotic love because of the fear that someone could harm him. You know? It was like,
Josh Lavine 58:15
Oh, that was gonna, I was gonna say. My initial reaction to that was like, that sounds like a normal mom.
Cass 58:21
I thought it was normal till I had my second one, and it broke when I had to split it, and then I got much healthier. It was, I
Josh Lavine 58:30
was so you're you were afraid. You were afraid something would happened. You were afraid something would happen to the baby. Yeah, that's why
Cass 58:35
you were, yeah, well, because there's so much involved, right? So I was having a boy, the idea of even changing a boy's diaper was terrifying to me, because what if that memory makes him think he was traumatized, like, I mean, bro, it goes deep when you've got that stuff. So it was just, I mean, like,
Speaker 1 58:55
okay, okay. I was all right, airbrushed.
Josh Lavine 58:59
A lot coming together for me, I was kind of, I was sort of lost there for a second. But I know it's really, it's okay, fighting it again, setting up the story. Well, okay, what? Let me just, let me just share some impressions with you. So as you were talking, as you're talking, and sharing your story about your your ex husband. A couple of impressions. So first of all, I mean, it sounds like it was a, it was a very difficult marriage for a very long time, yeah. And there were there. And, you know, relationships, it was mostly bad, it was mostly bad, but it sounds like it was really it was it was rough, yeah. And so just, I'm pointing out, first of all, the nine endurance for a difficult situation. You know that's it's, yeah, it's like the not
Speaker 1 59:48
leading the ad. And
Josh Lavine 59:51
also, I'm wondering if there was anything you didn't explicitly say this, but I'm wondering if there's anything too fixed in there, of just like continuing to go out to him and. And I don't know, just being like nine to energy as a stem, I guess, is sort of like merged, but also penetrating, like involved love, you know? I
Cass 1:00:13
mean, he was so, he was so,
Speaker 1 1:00:20
I don't even know
Cass 1:00:23
like his intensity of needs were ever present to where I withdrew from him a lot, a lot when I feel like anyone who's been married for a long time that gets divorced, if they're honest with themselves, will tell you that the moment they get divorced, the hindsight is so evident of the parts you played to it doesn't take away the fact that he was much more abusive, you know, to me, not not physically I should say this like he was not physically abusive. I mean, he wasn't sexually abusive. He was emotionally manipulative and verbally abusive, horribly so. And
Josh Lavine 1:01:03
also, he was 13 years older than you, and you were very young, very, very controlling. You're still in your formative years, yeah, but I think that's the thing, so, yeah, but sorry I actually, but that's, well, no, this is what I want to let me share a couple other questions, and I want to ask you kind of what your what your lessons were about yourself. And okay, so other impressions are. I'm fascinated by this, by this protective instinct you have over the baby, and that's bringing in resonance from your own trauma. And kind of
Cass 1:01:34
I'm protective of children in general, too. It's not just baby, it's not just my own babies. It's, yeah, all children that I will
Josh Lavine 1:01:44
tuition, nine wing eight plus two, like mama bear Energy Plus, you know, just resonance with your own. I guess. Let me think about how to put this. It's kind of like nines having experienced some pain, projecting it out into the whole collective. And it's like, I don't know how to say it good, yeah, it feels like, it feels like, oh my god, I can't the same pain. The everyone I Yeah, the
Speaker 1 1:02:16
everyone is, I totally do that, you know, I totally do that.
Josh Lavine 1:02:20
Yeah? And with the end, with the two, it's this, like, it's like, as, I don't know, nine kind of core, I'm projecting that everyone is like, merged in the same kind of experience, you could say,
Cass 1:02:33
or constantly, you're constantly merging, yeah.
Josh Lavine 1:02:36
But then two is, like, this penetrating going out to kids, you know, kids that you want to be protective of. And you have, I think, in your life, it sounds like you have people that often come to you with their secrets. Okay, so my theory is that what's going on with one of the things that's going on with two is that it's like, as a, excuse me as a young person, I didn't get the attunement that I wanted, and that was so utterly painful. And actually, not just I didn't get the attunement I wanted, but like, maybe even if I was hurt, that's that's like being hurt is that only happens when someone is not paying attention to in a way that's loving and positive. You know, yeah, especially if you're traumatized. We're deliberately traumatized. But what so two cuts itself off from external gaze and then basically says, Alright, I'm not going to let this happen to many more. But and it kind of suppresses its need, you could say, for being positively attuned to by others, and it resolves to attune to other people. But what it's, I think, it's doing, is it's projecting its own need for the kind of attention that it wished it got onto everyone else, yeah, and then assuming that that need is there in the and then going out and and fulfilling that specific need in them, you know? And so that's this kind of roundabout projection thing going on, and that I feel as a whole psychological structure is relevance, I think, to the way that you interact with, sort of children in general. Just kids, you know, your protectiveness, yeah? Kids,
Cass 1:04:19
yeah. Well, also both of the female Well, my grandma, who helped raise me with my mother, is extremely too fixed. I think she's a nine and six first, but she's also very too fixed. And honestly, you see a lot of women in Christian circles that are too fixed. It's a very highly praised way to be for a for a Christian Female, and I think because that too over, like not being aware and over doing it, thing was. Was something that annoyed me in my life. I really rejected the idea that I had a two fix. I really didn't want to see it, because it was like, I hate the smothering and the, you know, I mean, like, as a nine wing eight, I am so quick to try to get consent or make sure it's something that's actually wanted, because of the awareness that I can do that, and because it's it was done to me, to where it was just like, uh, but it became, I was blind to the fact that, you know, is like, I It's so obvious that I have a two fix. Like, my kids are very versed in the Enneagram language because of living with me. And they, they got into it too. Like, I think at least my first three have all read John's book. Like, like, they're, you know, okay, oh yeah, because, I mean, they're 2018, and almost 16. So, and we've been, we've been, this has been like the microcosm inside of our home, like my 11 year old, like we were watching a show my other two and I and she was in the kitchen, which is right here, and I was like, oh, you know, I was like, Oh, this dude's like, six all day. And then my my daughter's like, three, three fix. And I was like, I think so. And my daughter in the other room is like, Oh, my God, they're doing the Enneagram thing again. I'm like, this is the language I live in. I don't know how to explain something without using it.
Josh Lavine 1:06:25
I know it really infects you, yeah, it does it, well, it's Yeah.
Cass 1:06:29
And for me, I found Enneagram as I was leaving that marriage and religion. I
Josh Lavine 1:06:33
was just gonna ask you that. So, yes, okay, okay, let's get back on that, on that, on that train of thought. Because, well, actually, okay, let me, let me say one more impression I had your, it feels like your energy is so much bigger than I think you experience is in your, in yourself internally. Because I'm so struck by your, your your your sense of yourself is fragile. And also, anytime there's been anything with technology, you're like, oh my god, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. Oh yeah, quick to, like, ridiculous, retract and be like, Oh my God, I hope I didn't. Oh, I didn't do
Cass 1:07:08
anything. I'm okay.
Josh Lavine 1:07:11
Please tell me I didn't. I didn't disrupt you. I didn't want to make any ripples here. I'm so sorry. But at the same time, you're, like, barreling forward with so much force, force and energy, and also you're so you have so much associative freedom in your mind that it's like, you can. You can go in these conversational swirls and eddies and then come back to the thread. And sometimes you lose a thread. Sometimes you hang out over here for a while, and then, you know, and it's
Cass 1:07:34
like, all my best friends just so much. We
Speaker 1 1:07:36
all have this Yeah, there you go. Yeah. People, they can. It's just so funny because you're, yeah,
Cass 1:07:45
because it's too much for somebody like, you know, a 613, is not having a great time in this conversation, maybe.
Josh Lavine 1:07:53
Well, let's see. It's, I don't know. Maybe I just, I'm really, I'm struck by the, well, actually, even that what you just said, what you just said, The too muchness is, like, there's, there is, like, seven and eight, that whole area in the Enneagram is, that's the too muchness, yeah, Also too you could say it's like too muchness. You know,
Cass 1:08:14
it breaks my heart when I hear you have, oh, sorry, go ahead. Well,
Josh Lavine 1:08:19
you have, you have all that too muchness sort of as a sensibility or an energy that's floating around your in your but it's packaged in a nine core, and so there's like,
Josh Lavine 1:08:34
what's the right word? Not a shame, a reticence about being too much, a wanting to make sure it's like, yeah, this is you're about to get a lot of energy. But I want to make sure
Cass 1:08:45
it's okay told your whole life you're told your whole life, that too much. Okay, so, like, I watched the Paul's drag race, and Bob the drag queen is, if he's not a seven wing 80s and eight wing seven. And in one of the critiques, they're like, You, you, you're showboating, and you're too much, and you need to calm down. And I watched his little eyes break, and now he's a seven or an eight, so part of him doesn't care, because fuck you. But like, at the same time, I was like, I know, because I hate being told that, and I'm told that especially it's like, once you get close to me, it's like, Oh, if we're just friends and we're just kicking, kicking it or whatever. And it's like, then it's like, you love this. You fucking love it. You want it all the time. But then it's like, oh, well, if, if it's, if it's every day constantly, then it's too much, and it's too much. And so it's like, I am one of the few nines who will probably say, I've been told my whole life. Calm it down too much. You're so loud. Can you stop? Can you that? You know, and so it's like, Oh, when I hear someone say that to someone else, I'm like, it just breaks me, because it's like, that's such a deep wound for me. That is such a deep wound for me, and I, I don't I. You're not too much for other people, you're too much for that one fucking person like you will, at least, I hope you'll find the people who actually see the value of all of that energy of, you know, like for me, it's excitedness, you know, typically is. It's like, okay, yeah, you just killed my fucking vibe. Because what? Because I'm a little loud for you, because I'm a little loud. That's, yeah, that's the problem.
Josh Lavine 1:10:24
Yeah, it's also just, like, maybe another way to frame it is that in the body sensor, it's, it's all about, I want to just, I want to just be as vibrantly alive and express, you know, all of my life force, you know, however, is congruent to my life force at the moment. So if I'm, if I'm if I'm lit up with something, I want to just express it. I don't want to be impeded or influenced or constrained. You know, when I want to rest, I want to rest when I want to, like, be big and I want to be hypocritical
Cass 1:10:53
too, because if someone else is too much for me, yeah, then I'm like, yeah, there you go. Then it's like, That's bullshit. Like, you, like, you, okay, so when you're up, it's fine, but then if you're down and someone's trying to cheer you up, I'm immediately eight wall. I'm like, why are you like, why are you trying to control how I am? Like, how I am isn't affecting you, you? I mean, it's like, oh, that's bullshit. That's totally I was like, I'm literally doing the same thing, because nines do need that, that buffer inside it, internally and externally. So it's like, yeah, I don't know. Man, I don't know, having an attachment and then two hex ads that are opposite hex ads feels like a lot. It feels like like I feel like I'm at war inside myself with the different things like I feel and I'm probably wrong, but I feel like it's easier to be a Bermuda in this life. But at the same time, it probably isn't, because you guys probably have so much internally that you I don't know, because I don't know what it's like to be, but I just feel like, for me, it looks like it'd be easier, like I just swim through this, through this world, and I wouldn't forget everything, and I would, I wouldn't space out, and I wouldn't accidentally use toxic positivity to, like, not fully be present with someone like, those are things, you know, like, like, I don't know. I just feel like, yeah, the trifecta. But although, well, why is there so many of them? Maybe this is because they live longer and they're more successful. Like, I mean, maybe, are you sure?
Josh Lavine 1:12:41
Okay, okay, okay, okay. So let's get back to, let's get back to how you discover the Enneagram. So you, you, you were getting, you got a divorce, okay, and all by the way. So that was, that was a pretty significant breaking point for you, right? So you're wanting to transition. It was dead woman. It was, you were
Cass 1:12:59
what I would describe divorce as is a death. It's the death of your family and the death of a religion, yeah, and, and you'll never you want to
Josh Lavine 1:13:09
death of the whole belief system as well with religion. Yeah,
Cass 1:13:12
huge, huge, yeah. But see that came out slow, you know, like the religion thing, okay? Because for me, okay, so 972 and and maybe, maybe a DJ could probably do this as well. But like, being raised in the religion I was, there was a lot of rules, and some of those I adhered to, right? But like with the nine and the seven, and because I'm super verbal and I'm super quick, I could get away with a lot in that system, like I was allowed to really be myself. I bro, I would make jokes about smoking pot and church like I would, I would just say salacious, naughty things because, because, like, they all knew me, and they all knew like, Oh, she's just kidding. And it's like, Am I like, I'm not. But you know what I mean, like, so for me, religion was personal. It was, it was, there's the religious entity that I'm raised in, and I want to rail against that system. I'm inside of that system so I can constantly be like, pointing out, you know, like things that are incongruous. Or, you know, finding, you know, like ways to, you know, because I the crux of my religion was based on love. Jesus was love, you know? And it's like there was rules, but I was kind of raised outside of them and where I was, so it was like I would tip toe, you know, whatever. So then, with leaving it, it was like it was very hard, because the religion I carved out for myself was was a personal relationship with God, where I felt, you know, because of the Holy Spirit, that, like, I could commune with Him, you know, like prayer and worship, you know, like they would call, like music is worship. The term is so gross now, like now that I look at the term outside of it, like fucking worship. You. Oh, I would never, I would never, but I did, because that's what I was raised as. So it was like I thought that I could keep parts of my spirituality, you know, like it was a slower thing where, like, with the divorce, it was like it was a pretty much instant well, so like, the moment he told me that he wasn't like, was a woman and wanted to live as a woman. It was like, I support you, like fully, but like that also means that I, I'm not sexually attracted to you, and I can't, I can't sleep, you know, our relationship will have to change. And that was just like, Absolutely not, you know. So it was very much like he said the words, I'm trans. And it was like, I felt like I audibly heard us like a rubber band snap. And it was like this hole that this man had had on my heart for the entire time. It was just gone. But then it was like the reality of like, I, I mean, I, you know, it's like two or three months of just crying every single day, telling your kid you can't tell them why, but you will, which is just awful, because it's like, I don't live my life where I don't. I don't hide things so or, like, I try to avoid height. I do hide things, but I, in a lot of ways, I don't. And in the, you know, like, I don't, but, um, like, then it was, like, the realization that, um, I don't know, I don't even know when love ended, you know, like, so much of that end of the relationship was the fact that we're even now, even to this Day, we're still comfortable, right? And so it's the comfortability, like the that man watched me, watch me grow his four children, watched them come out of me, cleaned up the mess, like, watched me breastfeed his four children for a year and a half. You know? I mean, like, there's, there's so much of that, that it's like, that there's a comfortability, comfortability, comfortableness, like in the fact that there's just that much history.
Josh Lavine 1:17:12
Okay, I want to talk about, let me just read something that you wrote to me. So you said you want to advocate well for your children when you're and when you're nine. Speaking up is hard. It's harder for yourself, but wanting to wait and see if things will just magically work out is strong. Yeah. So again, that's a really core nine thing, that sort of fantasy type, positive outlook, also that there is a, there is a passivity in nine where it's, it's like I, or I default into a passivity where I just hope things the environment will sort out. The like, problems will solve themselves, the universe
Cass 1:17:57
will take care of it. Yes, that's that positive fantasy, yeah?
Josh Lavine 1:18:04
But anyway, so, but you said that something happened. So anyway, I'm curious, actually, if you have response to that, let me start there. Let's just start there. Yeah, anything come to mind?
Cass 1:18:15
Well, yeah, um, I mean, I felt like multiple times in my parenting, I've looked at other mothers that are probably sixes, and they can there because they're a reactive type. They're, they are, they are just, they will effortlessly, usually and quickly. They'll just succinctly, even just say, like, you know? Oh, that is his. He doesn't want you to play with it. I'm so sorry. Or, you know, and though that seems so easy for them, whereas it's like for me to get to the point to go speak to another parent or speak to someone else's child that's not mine, and correct them is so it's almost impossible sometimes, you know? And so then it's that betrayal of self and betrayal of ones I love, because I feel that they deserve that, and then I am not able to give that. If that makes sense,
Josh Lavine 1:19:17
who's able? Who deserves
Cass 1:19:19
it? My children, you know, yeah, yeah. Like, like, it's like, I can look at it and be like, Oh, if I was another person, I could just, like, there was a situation where, like, this is also just, like, being a whiny baby nine too. I think is, it's like someone said something about something I believed in my parenting to be important, and they said something negative about it, and I was like, I don't want to be around this person. Like, I don't even want to go by them. I'm done, you know, like that we are we are not aligned. Move and like, my ex husband being a reactive type, was literally like. Like, like, looked at the person, was like, oh, that's silly. We do this. And I was just like, yeah, we we do. That's what we do, and that's good for us. And it was just, it was literally so simple. I mean, so it's like, I mean, it is, that is something like, I could, there's a lot of instances where I can say, yeah, like, it, it was looking at what they did. It was like, why couldn't I do that? And why didn't I think of doing that?
Josh Lavine 1:20:22
Like, so, whereas you would have you were, your reflex was to retreat and cut off, oh yeah. His reflex was just to state, oh, well, this is what we do. And that's, it's sort of like,
Cass 1:20:32
and laugh at it. He literally like, yeah, laughed at it.
Josh Lavine 1:20:36
And so, yeah, but it's kind of like, the lesson was that you're, you are allowed, or you, it's possible to say, just to say, Oh, this is what I do. It's different from what you do, but to stay in relationship with that difference that I this is, I don't know how to put it, it feels like a boundary thing, but I can't quite put my finger on or something, okay.
Cass 1:21:01
I mean, the more I've learned about rejection, the more I've learned that I like people ask questions, like on Enneagram or board about, like, how does a rejection type do this or do that, you know? Or like, how do they reject? And like, to me, it feels like it's a pre, like, it's not even a thought. It's a, you pre reject, you know, it's like, I, I have a very specific idea, like, okay, parenting is the easiest for me, because I was a, like, like, a crunchy mom, you know, I, I was probably what would be considered a Trad wife. Now, you know, like, in reality, like, I home birth, I did not vaccinate. And now we do, you know, I mean, like, those are things I changed, you know, as I got smarter or online. I mean, I just grew, and I became more aware of where some of the information was coming from, and I made changes. I should say that that's a little bit more gracious on myself growth. But like, like, some of the choices are positive and great, and I'm happy with the things I've made, but like, there's tons of choices along the way where it was, like, I I thought I was researching things and getting non biased approaches and and and measuring these things out and Deciding, but there was so much rejection steeped in the thought process that it's like, I really wasn't, you know, like I, I
Josh Lavine 1:22:27
were you seeing rejection in the thought process? Um,
Cass 1:22:31
not, not, literally, not even hearing another side, like not hearing it, you'd you and, I mean, it's like, it'll be like, year like, I've said that on the boards too. I'm like, years later, years later, I'll look back and I'll be like, That person was just coming at this from a different angle, and I I see I was not going like that is not that I didn't care,
Josh Lavine 1:22:53
yeah. But, but also what I want to come back to the parenting thing too, because the it feels to me like, like being a mom is a is a huge core part of your identity,
Speaker 1 1:23:04
uh huh, it's the
Cass 1:23:06
So, it's the way Corp, I mean, like, I don't think you could, I don't think you could, yeah, it's the Okay, there you go, yeah, the crux, everything else is secondary.
Josh Lavine 1:23:17
So that's what I'm that's where I'm going with this. Is that, you know, someone makes a comment that feels like it's judgmental about your parenting, that that's, uh, that's a dagger to the center of the heart. You know that like, and I mean, heart in the Enneagram sense of it's, this is my identity. This is who I am. Yeah, and you having a different opinion about how to parent is actually an attack on my personhood and my self worth because of the way that I've constructed my identity as a mom. Yeah, I'm hearing, I don't know, there's something, okay, there's two wing or there's, there's two fix about that I was describing with the rejection of gaze and identity and the wound, I would say, of someone else's gaze being sort of like getting inside. It's like a splinter. That's what I use. That word for rejection types where it's like something, something you didn't want to have, affect you. Affected you. You know,
Cass 1:24:10
yeah, well, and as a nine two, it's like, I don't want anyone to ever think that they could emotionally touch me like I even, if you do, even if I'm gonna go home and I'm gonna go upstairs, I'm gonna cry for an hour, I still, I don't want you to ever know that it even happened. Yeah, which is why, then if someone tries to be like, Oh, this felt wrong. I wanna, I wanna, you know, correct it if, if I'm not in, like, a healthy space, like all you're doing is ripping open a band aid that I already got fine with, right? Because nines love to be fine or Okay, and when we're not right. But it's like you're poking at something where the emotional response is so strong that I. Am afraid to let it out, and then you're trying to be, like, fixing it, and I need to withdraw to fix, you know, it's so like that, that part is really, that's, that's hard, that's hard to navigate.
Josh Lavine 1:25:13
And I think there's a seven fix thing going on to, like, the willingness to just, just, let's see be done with something, you know, like, three, seven, wing eight, yeah, just that willingness to cut off, yeah, yeah. But it's not, it's not quite rejection, I don't know. Anyway, there's
Cass 1:25:35
something No, because there's so much, you know, like, there's the there's like, despite all of the froth and the fizz and the glitter and the glitz, like, if you were to ask me, like, does 972 feel like triple positive? I'd say no, it feels like misery and agony. Sometimes, you know, like the the a nine, having to hold seven, wing eight, as their brain is like frustration and you can do nothing about it. I mean, like, there's just, there's so much like, like things could be, or hope to be, or whatever, but it's like you don't have the driver, the power or the push, you know, like there's just that. It's, it's torture. It's like it feels like that, you know, because it's like seven wing eight is strong. You know, your eight wing is strong. But the person of who you are is not, it is not strong or or that's the
Josh Lavine 1:26:45
that's the thing. It's that's the message, that's the inner message you're telling yourself, yeah, that's that Yes. But again, like this comes full circle to that thing of like holding on to a sense of inner fragility or smallness, but also putting yourself in situations where you can experience more of your strength, like watching precious. Is there anything else like that still happening for you? Like, are you what? Oh, things are you doing?
Cass 1:27:09
So recently, I got into therapy again, because I actually mentioned that when I wrote that, like I had, I went to therapy once before, when I had to learn how to cut off a friendship that was really toxic, that's right, and, yeah, and, and, like, I found a really amazing therapist. She's great. I need to go back to her. I haven't seen her since January, but we talked about codependency and terms that you hear thrown around all the time, but yet, like, till you apply them fully to your life, not to a situation you're thinking of at the moment, and you're just like, but like, when you go into, like, a therapy size situation, and you're like, I have this. And they go, I can see codependency in this, and I can see this term in this and you know, would you be willing to go home and just, just, like, literally, she asked me. She's like, go on Pinterest and look up, you know, certain words. And she's like, just scroll through and screen save the ones that that are gonna that stick out to you. And then when we come back next week, let's go through those. It's great, because for me, I need homework. You know, like, most of the time in therapy, it's like, they get dazzled by this, and then they don't ever get into here, and it's just me throwing my money away.
Speaker 1 1:28:33
Yes, oh, very easily, especially
Cass 1:28:35
because it's like, even with you, like the two fix I genuinely want. I don't like a one sided conversation. I want to know all about the little intricacies of of you. I want to know your childhood. I want to know You know, like it is actually harder and much more vulnerable for me to do it this way, because so much of me sharing myself is when I ask you questions about yourself and we share together. That is, that's my favorite, that's, that's my home and my comfort. And it's also I learned so much like, I like asking people questions, and most of my relationships with my friends are me. Almost like counseling them, in some ways, not as much. Now, you know, I've gotten better boundaries, but it's because it's like I learned so much about your process when you're telling me this story, and that informs me about things that I might not notice in myself. And it's not always easy to see me, because nine, nine hides me, and nine hides me from myself to where I do almost become like the caricature or the shield or the wall or whatever, and it's like, I don't even check in with, with, with, with this a lot of the times, till someone pisses me off, and then I'm like, immediately, like, No, I hate that. Like, I don't know why. I didn't know I hated that. But now I know I hate it. Like, fuck that. I hate it. So I, you know, like, I, but like, I Okay. So I. Kind of got off tangent here. So I learned in that process that like, and I already knew this, but sometimes it just needs to be said, especially when you're dealing with me, it was like with a parental figure. When you're dealing with a parental figure or any relationship like, and this is just so cliche, but you cannot make someone want to have self growth. You cannot, you know, like you doing the inner work, even when you alone are working on yourself, the people in relationship with you that alone with them doing nothing can be scary for them, because you're going to change and grow and evolve. And you could change and grow and evolve away from that relationship. It can, you know it, they can recognize that it's positive and good and still have that fear of, what does that mean for us? So like I would, I would over share with like this situation, and I would expect them to get it, and they'd be constantly missing me, and then I would be noticing the Miss, trying to call attention to it. They haven't done any of the inner work to even understand what's going on. Yeah. And so it becomes this codependent thing of my expectations being something that's not It's not possible. So it's like, if you you can't make people change. You wouldn't want to, because you wouldn't want to have changed yourself before you were ready. So it's like, I had to settle into that, and I had to settle into I can just have a boundary, and it's fine.
Josh Lavine 1:31:40
One of the things that is really striking to me about you, other than all the glitz and the and the glitter and all that's the that you describe, the froth Yeah, that you describe, which, by the way, it makes a lot of sense to me why a therapist would have a hard time, kind of like finding the way through the Yeah, the maze of that into the more vulnerable places in you, and why it would be useful to have, for you to have homework, and then kind of like a structure for you to come back to, yeah. I thought about this, okay, relating to, yeah, anyway, so I could see how that would be the form of therapy, a form of therapy that would be actually give you some bumpers, you know, to
Cass 1:32:18
to so yeah, because otherwise it feels like just someone being nice to me, and it's like everyone's nice to me. I don't need nice. I don't need nice.
Josh Lavine 1:32:25
This is, this is something I okay another seven wing eight that I sevens. People with seven energy, I think, high up in their stacking, have said this to me a number of times where it's like, I don't need someone to help me reframe in a positive way anything else I need help. I need someone to help me stay with the pain, the remorse, the things that are that are that are hard. And one of the things that as back to my original point, what I find striking about you is that even as a nine, this kind of like Harmony Seeking nine, wing eight, you have so much of a willing even with two fix actually, it's like this, like, kind hearted. You have this willingness to just be, like, kind of brutal and and just, and like, flippant. And I love it, and I love it, but it's fun. It's like, entertaining, fun, negative shit on this thing, like, who cares? Go away. You know, that kind of an energy. Yeah, it's just, it's just interesting to feel that from you in a package that also defaults. I'm so sorry. I don't I hope I was, yeah, making that kind of a kind of, it doesn't make any sense. It's really
Cass 1:33:39
dude in high school. I was obsessed with the movie Fight Club. I watched it every day for like, two years, like, and that is literally just like joy and delight in getting
Speaker 1 1:33:48
every Hold on, hold on, every day, every day
Cass 1:33:51
for two years. Crazy. Okay, wait another one.
Josh Lavine 1:33:56
Can you okay? Did you watch the episode with Kate Ortega? The seven wing eight, social, sexual, seven wing eight. Yeah, also nine, wing eight. That's crazy. Okay, she had a same thing where she she reads Harry Potter, oh yeah, over and over and over
Cass 1:34:11
again. And it's so it's so her comfort, and it's so mine, like you were right when you were talking about that. So for me now, it's Howell's Moving Castle. It's a Mia. I love that movie. Oh, my God, I watch it. It's like, my go to like, my fiance could probably quote that shit. I have one. He's like, he's like, if you're he's like, if you have a drink. He's like, I know how swimming castle will be on when I go to bed and I'm like, yeah, when I'm night night, after like, a little bit of vodka or wine, house movie, Castle, I just want that music in the background. I love it. Calcifer is hard. He's, I guess I have to just be a seven
Josh Lavine 1:34:47
some I have to just put some words to that, because I'm so fast. I was blown away and fascinated when Kate revealed that thing about Harry Potter, just for people who are watching, yeah, go watch that episode. But Kate, Kate had a thing where she was she. Would read Harry Potter over and over and over and over and over again. Just she would finish the series, go back, start it again, finish the series, go back. This thing about like this, this comfort. It's like self soothing. It's a self soothing thing. And both people with trauma, you know, in their history and so,
Cass 1:35:21
so, yeah, there's something about that,
Josh Lavine 1:35:23
yeah, I just think that's what it is. But it's great. Well, it's, it's, I guess, the way that I would articulate from an engram point of view, and I'm sure there's more depth to it than this, but you've got the nine, wing eight, I want to block out everything that's uncomfortable, and I want to, like, commit to the things, the familiar things that provide comfort. And it's like, I know I can rely on this to make me feel cozy and safe and yummy and warm whatever. And it's eight, but it's also settling eight in the sense that it's like, I'm not I'm not responsive to anyone who might say you should, maybe should move on from this piece of like, maybe there's other thing, like, you know I'm saying, like, there's a self anchored knowing of that this, you're not gonna tell me. You're not gonna tell me, like, I should watch something else, or I should read another book, or I should show me what better sports, whatever. Yeah, there's like a mental impenetrability. You could say, with seven wing eight, where it's like, I'm or, here's another way to put it, is, I think of, I think of, you know, the mental fixes are about, how do I achieve a sense of certainty? And with seven, it's, how do I achieve a sense of certainty about what will be optimally nourishing for me? And seven, six wing is Dionysian almost, yeah, seven with a six wing is, I'm seeking. I'm pinging off the collective what do other people think would be good for them? But then, no, that's not quite right for me. Okay, here's where I here's where I am, but it's kind of like triangulating my position. So yeah, there's
Cass 1:36:57
a much more of a socialness to the seven weeks. It feels like a social aspect,
Josh Lavine 1:37:03
but seven, eight is, I think, referencing its own internal, somatic anchoring for certainty, radically hanging the sing, the six wing, attachment, mental center, collective eight is self, self anchored. So that's why it's like, Well, does that make
Cass 1:37:19
sense for me, the concept of independence and self ownership, and all of those things are so integral to me. You know, like, it's like, I, I, I want to love someone for who they are, because of their individualness. I love myself. Well, sometimes I do. I would, I have a tenuous relationship with myself at times, but that's a lot of us, um, but it's like, yeah, it's, I just value, I don't mind. It's not like, so it's not like the four, like a four fix where, like, it's like, lofty, right, like that, like, there's, I don't think that's the because I, I mean, I can do that. Like, I'm a millennial, so we're all like, like, a little bit of a douche bag, you know, we're a little little elitist. There's a little elitist in us all, but, like, but it's, it can be something everyone loves, but it's, it like, there's a uniquely personal part of it to you or to that person. And I do, I guess, sort of attach people to things too, in some ways, like my best friend, like, when I think of her, I think of like, 50 style pinup. Because, like, that's like, when I met her, that was she always, she would do rollers and do, like, victory rolls in her hair. And, like, that's always been her esthetic. And so it's like that I do kind of, it's like, you have a signature and that's you. It's not like, there's not a million girls doing 50s style hair and pin up stuff, but like she's the only one, and I know, like the love and detail that she has for I don't know like, but it is very like things II and then, like singular, singular to to the person. I think that's why the try, like having the tri fix, and even doing, like, the collages, like they do in Enneagram, or, like, I love them because they are, like a they're a uniquely personal signature. But then it's like, then you start to pick up on the correlations, you know, sevens love bright colors, you know, or whatever six is, you know, like you're gonna have some white nights and shit in there. Probably, like six three, they like their shining armor and on the horses and stuff, or whatever, you know, whatever the case may be. But it does feel singular. Maybe that is just seven wing eight, though, as that fix is that it just the delineation is important. I don't know I feel like, I feel like everyone around me, when I was first like, on the Enneagram type boards on Facebook, they were always like, how are you at a seven? I know you say you're nine, but you're a seven. You're a seven. Year seven, year seven. And I was like, I get that the outward approach, even online, just listening to how I talk. I get that, I appear seven. But when you look at the things I always to me, Enneagram are always made. Enneagram made sense because it was the ugly stuff. It was the things you're trying to hide. And nothing had me feel more laid bare and wide open to the world like nine. Did you know, because when I first, the first test I did was eclectic energies, and it had to be typed as a four. And so it's like, I read something about four, and I was like, I'm not a four. Like, I I knew right off the bat. I never even questioned. It was like this, I thought for fixed maybe. But that's just because of how depressing and negative I can be. That's one thing I will say with double EIGHT wings I do love, like, casual violence, like, I like, if you look at like, my top movies, there is, like, there's the part of me that loves house, movie, Castle and Sound of Music. Those are my top two. Love them. But then, like, at the same time, what are movies I watched over and over? Jurassic Park, good fellows and Fight Club. I've watched them millions of times, millions. I'll watch a million more times, like, so it's like there's something about, like, brutality, casual violence, dinosaurs eating people. You're running from them. So there's, like, a fear, domination aspect to that. I think, you know, like, other than just great movies, some of the best ever made. But still, I don't know, like, my mom's a seven, but there's not a bit of eight in her, you know, like, not a bit. And she's like, delicate, Oh, scary. I can't watch The Walking Dead because of blood, you know what I mean. Whereas I'm like, I want it to rain out from the sky. I want to see someone choke from it. Like, what are we doing if there's not teeth flying out? Why are we not why are we here?
Josh Lavine 1:41:40
I literally just shivered from that image. That's crazy. Sorry, no, it's, I love it. It's okay.
Cass 1:41:48
I haven't, I haven't done a collagen for
Josh Lavine 1:41:53
this thing. Is this, this has been the whole thing of this interview. Is this making me laugh? It's like, you, I mean, I said it three times already, but it's like casual violence. Well, no, but you, you have, you, you get on the train, you talk about how you're you deliver this big energy. You give these huge images. I want to see people choke in their blood. And then as soon as I have, like, oh, as soon as I wince like a little bit at something, I'm like, Oh, I'm sorry. No, it's okay.
Cass 1:42:19
Yeah, I didn't mean to hurt
Speaker 1 1:42:20
you, yeah? Which, by the way, coming
Josh Lavine 1:42:23
back to, are you a nine or seven? I mean, to me, that's that, right. There is, is the evidence? That's all the evidence I need, really? Is that?
Cass 1:42:31
Oh, for sure, yes. Because why would a seven ever even notice that you were bothered by it or care? Especially a seven wing eight, a seven wing eight, I don't think would, even if you winced like that, they would, they'd probably be like, okay, like, or something like, I feel like it would just be much more Non, non emotional, right, right, right kind of thing, okay, but I am allowed nine there ain't many like, I feel like there's not too many nines out here that are like This, or maybe they're just all in hiding
Josh Lavine 1:43:02
years. I think you're special night. So okay, okay, let's, let's, let's come to a closer. But I Your energy is amazing. I am like, I'm blown away by just how much energy you have and how hilarious you are. Okay, so thank you very much
Speaker 1 1:43:22
and peace out. Thank you very much. Okay, peace out. Thank you so much
Josh Lavine 1:43:27
for tuning into my conversation with Cass. If you learned something from this conversation, then please click the like button or hit subscribe if you're watching on YouTube or if you're listening to this as a podcast, and you can leave up to a five star review and leave a comment if you're listening on Apple or Spotify. Those are free and very effective ways to support me and the show and the work that we do at The Enneagram School. If you'd like to learn more about the Enneagram, then come check us out at the Enneagram school.com you can read everything that you want to know about the Enneagram there, as well as check out our intro course. I also recommend you get on our email list, where you will receive weekly updates about when we produce new shows as well as new classes and retreats that are coming and soon, also new type descriptions that are going to get pasted on the website and things of that nature. And also, if you think that you'd be a good candidate to be interviewed on the show, then I'd love to hear from you. You can contact me right through the website at the contact form, preference strongly goes to people who have been officially typed by the typing [email protected] who are, in my view, the world's most accurate, most precise Enneagram typing team. Check out their typing [email protected] and finally, this show is part of a consortium of Enneagram collaborators that I want to plug since somnia is the podcast where the Dream Girls discuss the relationship between the Enneagram and the unconscious in the dream world. And House of Enneagram is a new podcast where all of our creative Enneagram collaborators live under one roof and explore different niches of the Enneagram as well as its application to other personality theories, pop psychology, pop culture, TV shows, Movie. Is things of that nature. So all the links to all that will be in the show notes and thank you very much. I'll see you next time
Unknown Speaker 1:45:06
you.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
