Anna Palumbo 0:00
I feel like I used to exist sort of like in the space between me and somebody else. I wasn't fully here, and because I was in that space, it was just like, uncomfortable, you know, I felt like there was risk all the time, because it's like, you know what? What is the cost of me being true to myself. How is that going to affect my relationships? And kind of like increasing my threshold for discomfort, it didn't have to feel threatening to me anymore. Welcome to another episode of what it's like to be you. I'm Josh Lavon, your host, and on this show, I interview accurately typed guests about their experience as their Enneagram type. Today, my guest is Anna Palumbo, who is a social self pres, nine, eight, with 937, tri fix. And today she's back for round two. A few weeks ago, I published our round one interview, which actually took place about a year ago, and during that time, Anna was
Josh Lavine 0:58
in the midst of a classic attachment type journey of unenmeshing herself from the relationships that are important to her. In particular, we talked a lot about her daughter. There was also a lot going on with her partner at the time, as she was coming back into congruence with her own life force after having kind of lost herself in some of these relationships. Last time, when we talked, Anna showed up for the conversation in a way that was remarkably articulate, but she emailed me the day after and mentioned that she wasn't actually feeling fully present, and that was also something that I could feel in her presence as we were doing the conversation. And so we kind of agreed to do a round two at some point when it felt right. So years past and Anna has now, in my view, like amazingly successfully gone through the journey of reclaiming herself and is now living in congruence with her life force, and we talk about the effect that that's had on her relationships with her partner and her daughter, and, most importantly, her relationship with herself and the easefulness and simplicity that has emerged in her life as a result of living in this level of self congruence. We kind of analyze the ways in which nines can micro abandon themselves, that accumulate into a lifestyle of being in in a lack of congruence with self and then the the kinds of self honoring that you have to do to get back to self, and the turbulence that you have to withstand relationally as you're doing that, and how it's possible to kind of stabilize in this new, more easeful place. So that's what this conversation is all about. And it begins with Anna playing a song on piano that she wrote, and she introduces it herself at the beginning of the episode. So I will leave that to her. I just want to say up front that I was very moved by it. And just the whole way that Anna showed up in this conversation was really inspiring, like kind of there's this amazing regal glow that happens with nines when they are being in themselves. And I just thought Anna embodied that so beautifully today. And it's so cool to see this happen after a year, and to be able to capture in this way in this interview. So before we get to the interview, as always, one plug, please go check us out at the Enneagram school.com and I recommend you check out our intro course, which is where we introduce the Enneagram, and tell you all about what makes the Enneagram, the Enneagram, and also do deep dives on all the types. And so you can check that out at our website, the Enneagram school.com without further ado, I'm very, very excited for you to learn from Anna. Okay, cool. So
Anna Palumbo 3:43
take us away. All right, so I'm gonna play a song I wrote a couple of years ago. I was asked to create a piece of music for a friend from high school I hadn't talked to in years, and she was doing a podcast on bird songs and the effects of bird songs on the human body, because they naturally bring us into a state of relaxation, because birds only sing when it's safe out. So she her idea was that she would take the listener through a guided meditation, and she wanted a piece of music as the backdrop. So I agreed, and I had about two weeks to come up with something. So one day, when we were on our island house, I shoot the family away, and I opened up all the doors, and we're just immersed in nature there. We're on the ocean, and lots of birds, tons of bird activity, like every type of bird you can imagine. And I just wanted to listen to the birds. I wanted to hear. Yeah, I just, I wanted to connect in that way for this purpose, and see what came through. Yeah. And there was one bird that seemed to stand out and a little bit of a like a trill in his song. And I just started playing around to find the notes that were in his song. And later that night, I sat down and the the bass end came through really strong. And it kind of as I experience music, and especially writing music, I play a lot of improv. I just sit down and play whatever wants to come up. It's very through the body for me. So when I was feeling my way through the chords and the melody, it was just like I felt like I was just following something that was already there, and it was just my job to sort of like bring it into the world. And so the end result is the song. And, you know, it was great for the podcast or whatever, but the song actually, like, came through when I was in a real big funk, and I was feeling a lot of like achy heartedness, and it couldn't even, wasn't even that specific, but I ended up naming the song wings for the heart. And a couple days after I finished it, my dad actually had a giant heart attack, and he survived. But in all of that, just sadness and worry and grappling afterwards, like this song became great medicine for me to play. It just somehow helped me to land back in, into my heart and to like, process the immensity of what was happening for me. So it is still something I go back to to play when I need grounding or just like release,
Josh Lavine 7:01
yeah. And just for context is, did you write? When did you write this?
Speaker 2 7:06
This was over in 2025 so this was 2023 okay, no, sorry, 2022 April, three
Josh Lavine 7:13
years. Okay, so a couple years before we did our first conversation, yeah, yeah, okay, okay, okay.
Unknown Speaker 7:24
I might cry when I play it. I do Sometimes,
Speaker 3 7:27
sure, Yeah, Okay. Oh, my God, I'm
Anna Palumbo 11:34
good? It's always, it always feels good to play it. And I always, I play it slightly differently each time. There's little small things. So when I never sit down and plan so I kind of just see, like. Oh my god. that was Amazing. Thank you. You wow, I don't know what to say. I Okay, thank you for playing that. Yeah, you're welcome. Thanks for receiving that was a special thing to bring through, yeah, yeah, i Whoa, yeah, that really affected me. It is, it is heart connected. I there's no other, you know, it really, there's something about it that was just so completely, yeah, it's heart medicine. So it brings up yeah yeah. And there's something too about the just like the way, the way you're framed right now with this incredible background and the opening to and as you're playing a cat walked by, which I almost laughed, actually, was such a cute little cat, but, yeah, no, there's something so like, Yeah, perfect. I don't know primordial about the whole a nine and her natural habits. Yeah, exactly. It's that. It's like, this is like an essential thing coming through. Yeah, feels like that for me. Wow. What was that like to play that What, what wants to come out and generally, like when I play, especially if I'm recording, I sit down and I record the very first take. Okay, because there's something for me about that's like, I can feel the music the strongest when it's really fresh. It's like that relationship or that connection. It's just like, it's like meeting, right? It's like meeting this piece of music, meeting this vibration. And I noticed that, you know, yeah, the first couple takes are always the best, always the most. I want to say, like, authentic and true and pure to that way of transmitting music. And then, like, as it goes on, it just feels a little bit more contrived. And I can be a little impatient with my music. Yeah, wow,
Josh Lavine 16:02
yeah, there's something just so powerful about what just happened for me. I don't know. I'm trying to put words to it. It's like I could feel your I could feel how like I the trepidation that you had almost before you played it, or in your introduction, and the sensitive, the sensitivity of it, and how important it is to you, and the like, the decision to play it, yeah, and just start with it, yeah. So yeah, it's like this nine moving to three moment. But there's something so like, soft and exposing and real about it. It's like, like, the essence of three or three always gets characterized as this over polished, performative thing, but it's actually what it actually is, is just showing you who I am, yeah, and when that nakedness comes through. It is, it is radiant. It has a glow, you know, yeah, and that's just, that's, to me, what just happened,
Anna Palumbo 17:08
yeah, and yeah, it feels maybe like more of that essential quality of three, right? Since the Yeah, the high side of three. And I think, you know, there's a way in which, at this point in my life, I just really, you know, I used to kind of like temper, how much I would infuse the space around me with myself, right? And, you know, in the typical nine way of, kind of seeing what would be most digestible for everybody, you know sort of thing. And now I kind of don't, I am more true to how I want to express so I'm more comfortable with saturating a space or an environment with my own energy and and, and because of that, I feel like, you know, like music and whatever I'm creating just actually seems to flow out of me a lot easier and freely because there's space for it and that channel is open, yeah, right. It's not, it's not being cornered into, like a little spot in my life where I can fit it in, you know, just for me, yeah,
Josh Lavine 18:38
yeah. Sort of of two minds here. I feel like what just happened was very sacred, and so I'm kind of like being soft with it at the same time, what you're saying is maybe it's a natural transition. I mean, like talking about doing the second conversation and the place that you're in now versus the place that you're in when we first talked. And I don't know, I guess it feels kind of like you've, like you've been on a journey, yeah, and you've, you've arrived in a place where you're, where you where you have access to this kind of a thing more readily. And so, yeah, does it feel right to kind of take us through that journey and where you're at now, or just Where were you last time we talked, and what's happened since? And where you at now?
Anna Palumbo 19:25
Yeah, last time we talked, I was like, in the thick of the thick of it. Yeah, you know that particular moment in time was, there's a lot going on externally and internally for me, and I've noticed that, you know, when there's a lot going on externally, I can sort of retreat inside. When there's a lot going on internally, I can cope through doing however, if there's a lot going on on both of those planes, it kind of creates. Was a feeling of sort of like being locked out of my my essence in a way, or my, yeah, coping mechanism, or, you know, a comfortable space to exist in. And you know, I wasn't allowing myself to really feel fully what was happening for me at that moment and in, you know, if I had, I probably would have been like, you know, this isn't a great time for an interview for me personally or something like that, you know, yeah, even just, you know, we squat schedule for another day. But there is, like, I have a tendency towards stoicism and minimization of, like, my own limitations, so I'm kind of like, I can handle it, you know? And I could, and I did, but there was frustration for me and how I felt like I wasn't completely online energetically. And it wasn't, it wasn't coming from like, I'm afraid that people will see this and judge me, sort of thing. It was more of like, like a competency, cringe sort of thing, like, Oh, I really couldn't bring it. I couldn't Summon, you know, yeah, yeah. And I wasn't even totally aware what was going on until, like, we were in our interview. And, yeah, so there was just, you know, it was, I'm, I'm still really glad that we did it at that time, because a lot came out of that discomfort for me. And you know, it, it wasn't, you know, a useless interview by any means. There was, there was lots that was of value in there. And during that process, at that time, I was had, like, recently, I was gonna say, like, come online in a new way to how attachment, being an attachment type, had impacted my ways of relating, mostly to myself and so in sort of like reviewing, more like my relationship with relationships, you know, it wasn't just one relationship. It started, started out about me and my daughter, but it just like, went everywhere, yeah, and so as I kind of backed away from the the knee jerk response of what attachment tries to do into a more Like sovereign place. And I would say, like, you know, stretching that time between like, stimulus and response and kind of observing what was coming up for me and allowing myself to feel things as they were coming up, there was, like, I was flooded with irritants and, you know, negativity and frustration,
Josh Lavine 23:26
yeah,
Speaker 2 23:29
like, yeah. And, you know, in sort of like the nine seven way wants to kind of like deal with that immediately. Like, you know, process it, you know, kind of move on from it forward motion. But I was aware that, like, this was a backlog, and I needed to just sort of like sit with it and liminal space and just kind of like trust that there was a transformation going on beyond what I could know how it was going to turn out.
Josh Lavine 24:11
Yes, yeah, okay, there's two things I kind of want to hone in on, and we can do them in either order, but so one thing I want to hone in on is I was, like, fascinated by the how high quality our last interview was, and at the same time, how we both sensed that there was something like, like a numbness pervading it, or something like that. There was some, there's some kind of dissociative or wall or boundary or something like that that was happening. And you email me like the day after, and can I read you a little clip of what you had sent? Okay, so you said, I. Uh, in reflecting on our interview yesterday, I'm realizing just how much I was struggling to stay focused and present throughout it, and only felt like I was actually arriving energetically until the last part. This is likely not super obvious in the footage. Nines are masters at faking presence, after all, but something I wanted to share nonetheless, I did drop my mental threads a few points at the Convo areas that I had more to expand upon, or more specific examples I could have provided. As predicted, my thoughts led up all afternoon with things I'd plan, planning to talk about pockets of insights that fit into my story that I'd want to share and were just out of reach for me at the time. The irony is not lost on me here. I was talking about self location while in a fragmented state, and then you had that emoji of the face melting, yeah? I just, I loved that. And I was like, This is so just kind of perfect in terms of, like, the nine thing, right? It's like, your mid process. We're talking about it. You have made significant strides since you started the process, I don't know, like however long it was. Yeah, we talked. You were very articulate about the stages that you're at with your daughter, and you use this beautiful metaphor about, like, losing yourself. It's almost like you couldn't find a radio signal, like you're turning the dial, but you can't quite find the station internally, where, which is the station being you, like, where you are at, yeah, and all these words are coming out, these like precise metaphors to describe your state, while at the same time you're in that state, it's amazing.
Unknown Speaker 26:48
Yeah,
Josh Lavine 26:49
yeah, so can you So, can you say, what were you sensing? What was the thing that you were sensing that you that prompted you to write that email? Um,
Anna Palumbo 27:00
I think it was kind of like there was something that was mismatched within myself that became more apparent to me as that date went on. And I was like, What is this? Like, what is what's going on here? Because I knew that, you know, our conversation went well, and I couldn't really, like, specify something that had gone wrong per se, right? Yeah. So, you know, I took myself where I go when I'm kind of trying to figure things out, which is my garden, and I start pulling weeds and, like, immediately things just, it's funny. It's kind of like the the outward, physical metaphor somehow organizes me internally. Like, without fail, I'm always coming out of my garden and just like writing insights, and I was just like, Oh, right. Like, I could see how, you know, I kind of pushed past very initially, when our interview got moved up, like an hour or two, or something like that. Okay, I pushed back an initial past, an initial reaction to be like, ah. That doesn't feel like it would jive with me that day. There you go. Yeah. Okay, so there was something already that was compromised,
Josh Lavine 28:13
yeah, written a boundary or something, yeah. And
Anna Palumbo 28:17
I couldn't. And at that moment, you know, when I was like, Oh, sure, yeah. No, we can do that. I had kind of gone through the flow of the morning, and there was no logical reason why it wouldn't work. But there was some sort of something in the back of me that was like, you just need a bit more time to, like, arrive, because, you know, we've got a time difference going on my morning here is really busy, and then also, like, it was just like a chaotic time for me. So I hadn't had check in with myself, so I knew that I was kind of like diffused. My energy was going in a lot of different places, and it wasn't, wasn't with me in the way that I wanted it to be with me. So, yeah, I mean, I was still able to, like, you know, grab at the ideas and the concepts and, you know, put it together in a package in that conversation, but there wasn't the kind of, like free flow, spontaneity and like real time sharing of my process that I wanted. So there was a way in which it felt like slightly inauthentic to me, because I didn't feel like I was accessing my full range of self,
Josh Lavine 29:44
right? Yeah, that is, it's subtle, but it's such a good example of the nine sort of accidentally saying yes to something and then, and it's like, but. I really shouldn't be that big a deal. Like I should. It's almost like, Yeah, but this sense of like, I asked you to move the interview up earlier in your morning. It's like, there's no actual reason why I shouldn't, but it just doesn't feel right. And so there's something incongruent with your life force. You say yes to it anyway. You're you're coming into that conversation feeling incongruent. You're, you're trying to get back to that place of concurrence, but it's like, can't really find it until anyway, it's just, it's that's fascinating to me. And then that whole that thing of the there's some part of you that is that is operating in this conversation, that is able to reflect and words together in a pretty articulate manner, yeah, and yet, there's something that is receded, that's kind of not fully there, that is, you could say, like a deeper, more authentic self location, yeah, that's kind of like in the basement or in the background, or behind a curtain or Something like that. And I remember in that conversation, feeling some kind of a wall that is partly also the eight wing coming in. It kind of just, you know, the shut it shuts it down. So I remember there being, like, certain corners of your life that we could, that we could rummage around in, that were maybe already pre you already had, like pre meditated, kind of reflections on or something. But there were other things that were off limits.
Anna Palumbo 31:24
Yeah, for sure, yeah. And, you know, like, when I kind of reached out to you, was like, oh, you know, there were these, you know, anecdotes or things I wanted to go into with more detail. It was kind of like I felt like I was delivering, sort of like the bare bones of my experience, but the textures and the things that make it actually like truly come alive. That requires more access to my emotions, I think. And that was the part that wasn't free flowing, yeah, and that wall, like, I feel that wall. You know, you might have felt that wall, but I also feel that wall, right? There's the wall. Yeah?
Josh Lavine 32:13
So when we talked before this conversation, I was, like, really struck by the you took a road trip with a family. Yeah, and I'd love for you to just tell that story, because just to set it up, at least from my point of view, it's kind of like, or a question that I'm kind of operating with is like, what does it take to get back in congruence with your life force, that thing that you kind of micro betrayed by saying yes to an interview that was a little too early, right, right? But a lifestyle of those micro betrayals leads to like, the accumulation of those leads to a way of living life that's very out of alignment with yourself. Totally, yeah, and and the process of getting back into alignment with yourself has all the consequences that we talked about, and even even in the last interview, like it threatens your relationships, because a lot of your relationships are predicated on you not being in align with yourself. You just say yes to these things, and everyone can have their agenda, and you go along with it. So all of a sudden showing up and then acting in congruent. Basically, if I say, Hey, can we move this interview earlier? And you say, No, yeah, that doesn't work for me. And then all of a sudden we're having to negotiate as two solid entities, as opposed to, I'm a solid one, and you're the amorphous, like adapter or something, right? And so my sense of your story, of in the in the road trip, is that you became a solid entity that other people were starting to react to as a solid entity and adapting around and so that's
Anna Palumbo 33:44
Yeah, so I would say so we took the road trip in December, and we did some traveling in November too. I would say that, like solidity of what felt like me filling up my own form completely. And just sort of, like referencing myself before I'm referencing the outside, there you go, you know, and creating what, like, those bonds just kept getting stronger and stronger, like, over the summer and into the, you know, summer and fall, and usually, kind of, you know, October, November can be like a attorney inward season for me, and it can be where I sort of, like deal with all the things that I wasn't processing during summertime, because summer's fun, right? So I didn't want to go into that funk. So I was just very it was like I knew I had to stay activated and have this, like, continual conversation with myself about, like, everything that I was encountering, like, does this? Does this work for us? Yeah, no. Anime says it's like me and myself, and the more I did that, the more natural it became. The stronger those conversations became, and then it has just now become the way I do things. Yeah, my first response is no longer to self abandon. And so in a lot of ways, I feel like I have gotten out of the way of myself and the person that I'm supposed to be, I've
Josh Lavine 35:24
gotten out of the way of myself. Schematically. It's like the the part of you that interferes with you is so I'm just trying to make sense of this in my head. It's like that I'm getting out of the way of myself. It's like the self that you're getting out of the way of is, is the natural sort of fountain of your life energy, that that is, that has a direction moment to moment, where it wants to go, yeah, right, right. And then something can interfere with that, which is it, it'll try to redirect it, or it'll try to put a stopper in it to accommodate other people's life energies,
Anna Palumbo 36:03
the attachment strategy, that's right, yeah. So it's kind of like creating a new strategy, in a way, but it the strategy is, is no strategy. It's just be, be myself. So because I can have this reliance on self. Now it's like, I don't worry so much about how, like, going into something like this interview, because I'm not like, oh, you know, am I going to come off like this or that? I'm just like, oh, just gonna be myself, because that is a comfortable place just for me to exist now, right? So the road trip was a great example of like all of that change. We took our two younger kids in an RV and hit the road. We're on the west coast of Canada, so we didn't have, we didn't have an itinerary. We knew that we were going to drive to the Texas coast and back somehow. We're going to be gone for about two months, sort of thing,
Josh Lavine 37:13
Texas and back. Yeah, yeah.
Anna Palumbo 37:17
We knew we wanted to take, you know, back roads and just sort of feel it out. And, you know, I would say, like my partner and I really thrive. He's got a seven wing on his eight, and I've got a seven fix. Like, this is our comfort zone. Is plan No, plan winging it, yeah, winging it, yeah. We do it really well. And so he just started driving, and I just started on Google Maps. And it was really interesting, because I just led everything in that way. And so I was looking at the map, and I was thinking, Oh, I think we should go here, or this place feels right. And there was total trust between him and I of how the plan was going to unfold. And so, yeah, we just, we hit the road and we started driving. We also did something during that time where we're like, you know, we're not going to let our kids just, you know, screen time in the back. You guys are having an old fashioned road trip. So we weren't making it easy, you know, we were, it was, you know, I had an active role as a passenger. My partner did all the driving. But, you know, I'm, you know, making snacks every three minutes and settling disputes and creating activities. And it was good balance, because, we have young kids, we had to always have an adventure every day. So it was neat because, like, I could feel at the beginning of the road trip, like my partner and I were kind of like shaking off our dynamic that we can get into in the day to day, every day. And so we were a little short with each other, a little bit, you know, snippy, snappy sort of thing. But as we kind of the farther we drove from our regular life, it was like we were both more and more present with each other. And, you know, there's this shift between him and I that I've noticed that just became really clear, actually, after I listened to your material on eight and the intro course Enneagram school, and you say this thing about eights being, you know, sensitive to demands on their life force. And I realized that there was this way before all this shifts that I went through, where I was outsourcing to him a lot, energetically to that makes sense to lead, you know. Yeah, and that was kind of keeping me in my nine narcolepsy, and it was draining on him and frustrating. So, you know, we went through the actually
Josh Lavine 40:13
real, I just want to comment on that real quick, because that's, I think that's a common Nine, eight relationship dynamic where, yeah, Nines unconsciously sort of hitch their wagons to the eight engine totally. And it's like, you know, I can just rile Yeah, that's right, yeah. It's like, not. It's like a displacement of of responsibility for my own life force onto someone who's already moving.
Anna Palumbo 40:39
Yeah, yeah, totally. So I mean, reclaiming myself and you know, the trickiness that my partner and I went through during my shifts was kind of like we hadn't quite settled in our new dynamic yet. So then, you know, if it probably felt like it was suddenly, you know, very not easy going, and very oppositional. And, you know, sometimes just not able to back it up with a lot of words or reasons, but just kind of like, no, that doesn't feel right to me. And yeah, you know, the logic would fill in later. But yeah, so that that was tricky, but, you know, we came through it, and there was this, it felt like a renewal of our relationship, because I was no longer placing that energetic demand on him, and I was showing it more fully In myself. And you know, that the kind of the way at which he can be so big as an eight didn't feel threatening to me anymore. It didn't feel like I had to, you know, move around it or accommodate or whatever. I could just be like, Oh yeah, that's big. And here's my big nine. I Yeah, yeah. So I would say, you know, like, the whole family has benefited from the work that I've done because, because I'm aware now, I'm actually, like, way more present with, you know, the parenting process and stuff like that. So back to the road trip. You know, it really felt like a very even playing ground for our relationship to be in new landscapes. And you know, the exploratory nature of what we were doing. And I realized near the end of it that I even, you know, there were some tricky moments and stuff like that, but even in those tricky moments, like I was still fully present. I was allowing myself to feel everything as it came up, instead of going into a dissociated state, which I definitely would have in the past, especially when you're in like, close quarters with your whole family and yeah, so there's just, like, there's a way in which, like, you know, and especially when you're traveling and you guys are reliant on each other, you just process shit faster, like you can't hold on to it because you're together all the time. So you know we had, we had our tough moments, but it didn't. It feels like the emotional process for me with the my relationships burns cleaner now because I'm being more true to myself. So it's not like, it's not like I'm adapting and compromising and then feeling resentful and things aren't actually processed.
Josh Lavine 43:53
That's actually a good and interesting point right there, because if one of the ways that I conceive of nine is that nine, it's like they life is happening, and then they just inevitably, inevitably, because you're alive, something happens that's unpleasant and you wince, and nines get trapped in that, in the wins. It's like it's the the tension gets trapped and it doesn't actually flow through and get processed because or for whatever reason, but that sense of being trapped in the winds is kind of like, that's what caused and it's like, and the kind of further and further withdrawal from contaminants or irritants and things like that.
Anna Palumbo 44:36
And I would say a part of that too, is because it's like, if we allow ourselves to feel that, then like, there's a big backlog of stuff that we haven't been feeling when we're in that, oh yeah, yeah. So it's like, the straw that breaks the camel's back, and we're afraid of, like, our rage basically, you know, that's it. You know, the bigness of what what is. And. Our back storage room. So, yeah, I don't have that kind of baggage in a way anymore. It just doesn't. It feels lighter to exist and relationally, it feels like there's, there's space for me in my relationships and that, yeah, I'm just, I'm much, yeah, there's, there's not a lot of internal conflict, because I'm not trying to, like, manage myself,
Josh Lavine 45:40
right, right? Yeah, what I wonder, if this is the right question, but what kind of turbulence Did you withstand or have to withstand, as as you were starting to fill yourself up more with your own life energy and confront the demands on you with with your nose and you're actually I'm going to do this instead, or that doesn't work for me. Yeah. How did that play out?
Anna Palumbo 46:08
Well, it felt like there was conflict everywhere, right? Because now it was like, Okay, well, I'm not willing to budge here, and neither are you. So like, What the fuck are we gonna do? There was I had to get really comfortable with, like, allowing things to be unresolved in a way, and just sort of like trust that things were gonna work out. And I think, you know, initially, for my partner, was uncomfortable and difficult, and then the more I sort of practiced being in myself, the less I felt like I had to, like, overcompensate, because I realized that there was, like, nothing that he can take from me. I'm I don't, there's nothing to be lost here. So I don't have to come out with, like, a big, forceful No, or a whole bunch of reasons why it can just be, it can be less reactionary on my part, because I does
Josh Lavine 47:16
it. Yeah, an evocative state. What do you mean by there's nothing he can take for me as well.
Anna Palumbo 47:20
I feel like, you know, in the past, in the dynamic with my partner, because he's such a big energy and because I was looking to get along, there would be, and because he's, you know, got a lot of head energy. And I'm, I'm head last, I could feel like, dizzy and disoriented, because he can throw around a lot of good log logic, or, yeah, you know, things, he's an incredible salesman type energy. And, you know, it would get tiring to me that, you know, my head would just be, like tired, and then like I would get, you know, kind of shut down and try to preserve my energy, because I felt drained, so I don't feel that dynamic alive between us in that same way. And I think part of it is there's like, there's a bit more distance for that he sees me at now, because I'm a bit more of my own person instead of, you know, I feel like I used to exist, sort of like in the space between me and somebody else. I wasn't fully here. I was good standing, yeah, yeah. And because I was in that space, it was just like, uncomfortable, you know, I felt like there was risk all the time, because it's like, you know what? What is the cost of me being true to myself? How is that going to affect my relationships? Is there going to be conflict? How do we get through that, you know? So in kind of like increasing my threshold for discomfort around interpersonal conflict and just being like, Oh, I'm just not going to see that when I die. Or it didn't have to feel threatening to me anymore, because it wasn't my job to, like, go more than halfway. I didn't need I could just stay here and then, you know, he can have his process and, you know, meet me at another time to something
Josh Lavine 49:48
that's a big that's not my job to go more than halfway. Yeah, that's really, that's it, right there. I mean, the, I think something we've talked about, or maybe was in the last. This interview is this, this growing tolerance you've had for not needing to produce answers, for your reasons, for your preferences, and not engaging in the mental debate back and forth about, well, this doesn't make sense because of, you know, or however, he would enroll you in that kind of a debate where he's gonna, because it's his turf that took that quick seven wing territory, like he's just gonna, boom, boom, boom. Like, well, this is actually what we should do. But, yeah, just kind of letting that, let letting that happen over there, and then not getting enrolled and meshed into that mental dynamic, yeah,
Anna Palumbo 50:42
not getting drawn in. So there's been a way where I feel like I am better at articulating my experience and leading with that in conflict, instead of trying to, like, change his mind or or, like, get into it, even, you know, I'm just kind of like, oh, well, this is how it went for me. And like, let's hear how it went for you. Like, there's just, there's more sovereignty, yeah, how in one little thing like to loop back to that road trip. So I was writing, I was journaling the whole time that we were on that trip, and I had a physical journal. But I also was posting on Instagram and Facebook. And I really love to write. And I write kind of in present tense. So it started for the trip purpose as just not wanting to have to, like, retell everybody what we did on our trip. And I was like, I'm just gonna write it out in my my own way and put some pictures with it. And it turned into, like, many, many posts, a lot of writing, and it allowed me to kind of like frame, not only for myself, but for others, my experience and how I was, how I was seeing things and living things. And my partner doesn't often comment on like anything I post. He's not just not that guy, but he was really struck by that, and partially because a lot of people gave him the feedback of, like, Wow, your trip was amazing. And, oh man, it was so nice to read Anna's writing and like, you know it so it was a way in which I provided for others, like, a little window into our world through my framing and my capturing and my voice. And it has, yeah, it's kind of become a really something bigger than I ever intended with that. But it was, it felt like a special piece in, because there's a way in which like eight can be so big that they can forget to like back up and see their partner. And so there's a way in which, like this whole kind of resettling and restructuring into myself has created some like distance for him to actually like see me at for me, and it's
Josh Lavine 53:26
also like, a bit of a, like, a cool, let's see, like, seeing you through others eyes, yeah, helps, you know, create a little bit of healthy psychological distance. Like, it's not just this, yeah, you know, you and me looking at each other, getting into it all the time. It's kind of like this, a healthy triangulation, you could say, yeah, yeah, for sure, letting the the social gaze of others infiltrate and create refresh your way of seeing each other, yeah,
Anna Palumbo 53:54
yeah, totally. So yeah, yeah. That whole trip was, like, a really valuable experience. And kind of like palette cleanser between, like, one chapter and another.
Josh Lavine 54:08
You say one, one thing I loved was the your workout routine.
Anna Palumbo 54:11
Oh, yeah, right, yeah. So that was, you know, on the, typically, when I'm traveling, you know, I can tend to abandon the habits, routines and structures that really like help me to thrive. So part of all of this integration is just being really true to those things for myself. And so instead of allowing myself to kind of compromise, or, you know, be whatever about it, I planned our trip as like, No, I'm going to, I'm going to buy some little blenders. I'm going to have my smoothies every day. You know, I didn't bring my full workout setup, but I like to workout every day, so I have my yoga mat, and I had the kids. It's like filling old water bottles full of sand and finding me heavy rocks to use his weights and stuff like that. And so there was a way in which the whole family could kind of get on board with, like, mom's just gonna have her workout every day, and that's just the way it is. Yeah. So, you know, in parking lot or campground or wherever, you know, you know, we might think that we're gonna leave at noon, but we're gonna leave at noon, but we're actually gonna leave at one because mom's gotta have her workout, right? So there it was, like, yeah, it's just another one of those things that you know kind of helps to for me to like, feel at home in my world. Yeah, that my world actually reflects me. My life actually now, like reflects me on a very deep level. It's yeah, and then, because I am engaged and, you know, showing up with all of those things, those practices that like put me into greater communication with myself. It's like that only reinforces more it and and in that it feels like there's greater resilience to whether what is thrown at me because I'm already like deeply tending to myself and propped up by, you know, my piano, my writing, you know, my physical outlets, all those sorts of things that I can that are just part of that conversation with myself.
Josh Lavine 56:39
Yeah, that's the workout thing. Is such a good and very concrete example of this whole self aligned, self congruence thing. Because, I mean, it's like, I mean the willingness to delay through other people, because you got to get a workout in, and then the consistent commitment to that, and then they're learning over time that this is a given. We're not going to budge mom on this, you know. And so this is just all right, Mom's got to work out we're going to go do our thing for an hour or whatever, until this happened, you know. And I just love that. It's like, it's the opposite of, hey, can you meet an hour and a half earlier for this interview? And then, oh, sure, but not actually meaning it. So yeah.
Anna Palumbo 57:25
And as a parent, or go ahead, sorry, I was just gonna say, like, as a parent, like, I want my kids to see that I'm more than just mom, you know, like, it's good for them to see that I have other things in my life that are important, that I make time from and during those times, like, sorry, like you're gonna have to fend for yourself, make some toast, or, you know, whatever.
Josh Lavine 57:51
Yeah, wow. That seems like a really big statement. It's important for your kids to see other than just mom.
Josh Lavine 58:02
I was, I was, I was one. I've been wondering, as we're talking about, what's happened in your relationship with your daughter too, because I know your daughter's older, and she was, she wasn't on the
Anna Palumbo 58:09
road trip, right? No, she was holding down the fort here. Yeah, she's 17 now. Okay, yeah, um, oh, man, our relationship has just improved, like, tenfold, at least it is. It's so good. It is so good. She is really, you know, that kind of the process of us doing this into our you know, own sovereign beings has just allowed me to parent in a way that I wanted to, with more presence and more clarity around what she needs. I can be more perceptive because I'm no longer dealing with like, my emotional process, about her emotional process, right? And she has remembered that she's strong and, you know, can deal with discomfort. And I think, you know, as a parent, especially, you know, in this modern times, there's like, a tendency to want to, like, take away struggle from your child. And I always remember, like, don't take away their struggle. Like, be supportive, for sure, but like, it's okay to let them struggle for a moment to find their self regulatory tools and their voice and, you know, see their emotional process through, because that's where the growth is. That's where my growth was. And, yeah, it can go for everything from, you know, like tying your shoes, you know, no, I'm not going to rush in there to fix it. But also, you know, those. Hard, difficult moments. So, you know, my daughter is doing super well. I mean, we spend a lot of time together at this time of the year. We're on the road a lot. She's a competitive dancer. So you know that can bring you. Know, in the past, those trips have been really challenging because, you know, you throw in performance and travel, and you know, hair and makeup and the dance world, and it can bring up, like, all the things that could lead to tricky times between moms and daughters. But there's a way in which, you know, like, she'll, she'll ride it through. There's a, you know, she's got her six tendency to, you know, you know, there's a bit of theater involved in in, you know, whatever comes up. And I just let her be like, That's not threatening to me, you know, I'll kind of like, you know, giggle and join her there for a minute. And then, you know, ask with seriousness, like, you know, do you need anything, you know, and use some water and use some food sort of thing. But I'm not getting in it with her, right? And, you know, she, she writes those, you know, spirals and and gets out. You uh, yeah, yeah, by and large, it's been, it's been good. And, you know, I I realized that, you know, like, naturally, you know, I'm a, I'm a very loving and very patient parent, but I'm also, like, quite firm, and that just comes naturally to me, and it's like, I don't feel any sort of struggle inside to bring that part forth. So in kind of holding that boundary, and also, like holding my expectations clear my kids are, they know where they stand. And, yeah, and so there's more like it can offer a little bit more containment for them, because kids need that, you know, they don't. They don't want to feel like they can manipulate their parents, you know. And I'm not unconsciously trying to manipulate them them anymore, you know, which was definitely going on before by just my own, you know, level of discomfort with, yeah, what was going on with attachment?
Josh Lavine 1:02:34
I was thinking about your statement. I want my kids to know that I'm more than just mom. Is that a place like in the in the pattern of self forgetting and self abandonment that that happens, or that was happening back a couple years ago? Is that something that you also forgot about yourself?
Anna Palumbo 1:03:01
Yeah, yeah, for sure. I mean, there was a way that, like, my whole existence felt flattened, you know, it didn't feel I, you know, I've said a couple times, but like, I wasn't the person I was meant to become because of all these mini compromises. So you know, there were things inside of me that felt very achy that wanted to come out, for example, like I love to sit down and play my piano, but it's not always a great time in the household for me to, you know, take up all the, you know, sound space, and I'm more comfortable doing that now. And, you know, it just, I am more, yeah, more aware of, of just sort of like nurturing and growing all the facets of my being. I no longer need to see them as in competition with each other, or one as more important than the other, and there's room for all of them. And not only that, but they like they all reinforce each other when, when I'm tending to my physical body, my emotional body is strong, you know, and I especially feel that as a head last type like, my body is the container that my heart and my head can sit in so it is really important that I keep that.
Josh Lavine 1:04:29
Yeah, there's something clear. One of the things that people who are in spiritual self development circles will often a a phrase or a word that they throw around without often it being very clear what it's mean. What it means is the word integration, yeah. And I think what you just said is a really good statement of it, because it's kind of like all the all the threads of your personhood braid together into a coherent, Mm, hmm, kind of unity. Yeah. Where? Are. You don't have threads that are competing with each other for space, whatever, or fraying. And one's going this direction, one's going another direction. There's actually a way they spiral together, and the cord that's formed as a result of the spiraling is actually stronger than if they
Anna Palumbo 1:05:14
were frayed. For sure, it's the opposite of fragmentation. It's that it's right, right? And so, you know, another thing that I've noticed in my relationships is like there was a way in which nine can show up differently in all their different relationships, accessing different parts based on what feels permissive. And I've noticed that, like, I am now more congruent across the board, there's way less of that going on for me. So I'm the same person walking into the, you know, insurance office as I am going to meet the teacher, you know, going to hang out with my friends and and that feels like freedom, because there isn't this sort of like level of feeling like I need to manage or or shift and reconfigure to be right for the situation or the person, based on what, you know, some idea that I have about it right, and now I can just, you know, lead with myself, and that's way more comfortable place to operate from. Funny, how
Josh Lavine 1:06:20
that simplicity just comes online, and it just makes it it's like there's an economy of energy where you're not over calibrating to situations and just showing up, yeah, without as much contexts. I don't know. Let's see, yeah, you become a more a contextual person, maybe is a way to put it succinct way, yeah,
Anna Palumbo 1:06:44
yeah. More, more of a solid being, in a way where I feel like it's been particularly useful in business, because there was this way in which, like, especially like, you know, negotiating financial contracts or marketing, there was a way in which, like, especially with the marketing piece, it's like, I could get stuck in trying to see things from like, the outside in, as to, like, you know, how would other people perceive this content that I'm going to put out? Or, you know, if that, if I raise my price here, like, how was that going to land with them? And now I can just operate from the inside out, you know, I'm like, Oh, I can. I can create this content, because it's coming through me, and it's what I want to put out there. And it's generally been, you know, much of my business stuff has been way better receipt, because there's, like, there's more of me in it.
Josh Lavine 1:07:45
There you go. Yeah? Makes, so that makes a lot of sense. Yeah, yeah. I wanted to ask about one other thing, and then, and then we'll see where we're at. But this thing that that happened for you, where you just let the the background process happen without taking it by the reins or accelerating it or rushing it or whatever. There was a moment of kind of surrender to something that was mysterious unfolding. That whole thing is really interesting to me, because I think it's, it's a dimension of we talk about inner work as this often very effortful thing, and it is sometimes in the sense of doing battle against our typical personality structure you could say or resisting it, or inhibiting it, or whatever, or anyway. So there's all these, and there's a time and a place for that, but then there's kind of this, yeah, almost like more primordial intelligence that helps organize you without your knowing, or something like that. And I've experienced that too, like just my, my version of it is I remember years ago, I was feeling so profoundly saturated with external influences as a triple attachment type myself just I couldn't I could not even hear My own inner voice anymore. I was so populated with external influences, I just sponged it all up. I couldn't feel myself. And so I went to a friend of mine had a cabin in the woods in Georgia, and I went and stayed there for three months by myself, and I barely saw any human beings for three months. And it was one of the best things I've ever done for myself. And what's funny is I remember as a three thinking to myself before I got there that I was going to be really rigid about my schedule. I was like, I'm gonna be super productive. My This is my plan as I envision it. I was like, I'm I was like, I'm gonna be this, this red. Regimented person. I'm going to show to wake up at 6am I'm going to work out, I'm going to go for a walk, I'm going to come out, going to read, and then I'm going to just really get done what I need to get done when I'm there, even though I didn't even exactly know what that was. And then as soon as I arrived, within the first day or two, I realized something else in it was like, actually what you need is the complete opposite of that. You need total lack of strut you need. You need to have nothing on your calendar and just to follow kind of what you're saying, like the moment to moment preferences of your life force, like what feels right now. Don't want to take a walk, okay? Do that. And through that, there was this process of learning how to be more congruent with myself, moment to moment, and it was amazing. And I ended up being productive. I read a lot of books, I did some writing and journaling and processing, and ended up having the insight that is now, like, what the basis of my book that I'm writing, but it's I couldn't have planned all that. Yeah, and there was the some, there's something organic that happened in the background that I surrendered into, that allowed that self organization to take hold and just to kind of figure itself out without my interference, you got out of your own way. That's it exactly that what you're saying,
Anna Palumbo 1:11:13
yeah. And three does that by managing itself into its own way, right? And nine does it by adapting out of, you know, itself,
Josh Lavine 1:11:22
yeah, yeah,
Anna Palumbo 1:11:27
yeah. So there's like this process of like, self renewal is not new to me. There have been many junctions in my life and times at which things have seemingly come crashing down or falling apart, or reach a threshold where I am aware that, like I absolutely cannot go on and the same way that I have and that the thing that needs to change is within me. Yeah, you could call it a perspective shift, but it's not like to me that's heady. It's just kind of like it's bigger than that. Yes, yeah. So, you know, it's almost like I feel a bit of excitement leading up to that, because there's a way in which, like, it is unknown, it's going into the unknown with a lot of trust and allowing myself to, sort of, Like, be taken over and released from whatever it is I'm trying to push that is obviously not working. So, yeah, I've come through. I feel like a lot of these different reconfigurations, and I think that, you know, maybe that's something that attachment types have more access to, because, you know, we're just not as fixed in our way. But it's, you know, like some of them have taken months, some of them have been overnight. And there's a way in which I just feel like, oh, okay, there I am. There I am. And then things become, like, very clear as to, you know, the way forward, right? Yeah.
Josh Lavine 1:13:29
Well, how are you feeling right now?
Anna Palumbo 1:13:31
I'm feeling good. Yeah. Feel, um, happy settled. I'm enjoying this conversation.
Josh Lavine 1:13:41
Me, too. Yeah, yeah, what have What haven't we covered? Is there anything else that feels important to
Anna Palumbo 1:13:48
get into? I do have a note here with some things. Yeah, one thing I will mention, it's just little side note or whatever. Is that I've noticed a real, like increase in the quality of my relationships, just across the board, so Yes, with my daughter and my partner, but even my friendships and even, like more casual acquaintances, because there's this way in which I feel like self authenticity, um, or, you know, honesty, or whatever you want to call it, is like an invitation to the other person to show up in the same way. So, you know, I was having a real, like, icky feeling and some more of, you know, my kind of casual relating is to like this felt very surface, and it didn't feel reflective of, you know, like a conversation I really want to be having, right? So there's a way in which, like, yeah, relationships are just juicier now, because there's more they can. There's more places they can go.
Josh Lavine 1:15:03
Something I think is probably true about attachment types, is, and this might be especially true of social attachment types, but there's a way that this the threshold moment where you enter an interaction with someone is, it's, it's it, let's see, it's a, it's a charged psychological moment, because there's a question of like, what part of me is meeting, what part of you? Yeah, and the attachment strategy is to sense first, right where they are, and then to bring the part that's most appropriate to meet that part that they've shown first. And then that's, it's like, you're pre adapting to, you know, to this thing and and so
Unknown Speaker 1:15:59
you're waiting for a signal. Yeah, that's right.
Josh Lavine 1:16:01
And so part of this, part of this, I guess, where I go with what you're saying is, it's like knowing, prior to entering an interaction, what of you you're going to bring into this interaction that not in a, I mean, not in a aggressive way, even, but just this is, this is what I'm gonna bring here, and the other person's gonna bring whatever they bring, and we're gonna just see whatever as these two solid entities bump into each other. What happens? And I guess another way to put this is that I think attachment types can have a pattern of playing below their level of consciousness or intelligence because of this pre adaptation thing that they're doing. And it's like, I'm not really showing up with all of what I have available
Anna Palumbo 1:16:57
inside. Yes, and they, I would say, like, for me sometimes, like, I can see how I have done that a lot in my life, and it's kind of like a desire to not come off as a threat in a way, yeah, right, with too much. Whereas, you know, that doesn't really seem to concern me too much, because there is no threat. You know, my intention is to be present. And you know, I can meet somebody. I feel like I can much easier meet people wherever they're at right now. And it's almost kind of like an alchemy of exchange, because I'm securely tethered to myself. Yeah, I'm not not pinging to their location. I'm pinging to myself,
Josh Lavine 1:17:50
right, right? Yeah, I wanted to read one more thing that you wrote, okay, okay. This is what you wrote. This is months later, as you were reflecting on our first conversation, you you were kind of reflecting on your journey since then, and all the growth that you've that you've done, and you're basically saying, I'd love to do a second conversation. And this is one of the things you said. You said, I realized that even in my exhausted and checked out state at times, things were have, this is what we're talking about, just a minute ago, that there was a background process. I process, if a period of sudden inner growth could be compared to a growth spurt of the body. This was my time of aches and pains, of cells reorganizing themselves, of bumping myself against my surroundings, because I did not yet know how to move at this size of being, yes, yeah. Yeah. I just love that sentence. So good. And it's, it's this, and it's, it's directly related to what we were just talking about, in the sense of attachment types making themselves smaller to fit into whatever relational groove the other person is presenting, as opposed to being my full size, and then relating from my full full sized to your full size,
Unknown Speaker 1:19:03
yeah, yeah, for
Anna Palumbo 1:19:05
sure, yeah. And it was, it was a clumsy process, as you kind of, you know, learn how to maneuver what feels like a new, energetic body,
Josh Lavine 1:19:16
right, right? Well, I just have to say it's a it's really amazing to see this sense of settledness. And also what comes to, like, the word that comes to me is regal. There's like a regalness to your presence, and it has this. It has a fullness. And it's, I think also the word humility applies, but it's humility, not in a, like, a false, humble way, like, Oh no, like, I'm making myself small. It's like the humility to be my fullness, you could say, right, yeah, yeah. Like, this is actually what I am. So,
Unknown Speaker 1:19:58
yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, exactly,
Josh Lavine 1:20:02
yeah. Thank you. You're welcome. Thank you. So what's this been like, this conversation?
Anna Palumbo 1:20:11
It's been really good. Yeah, it's been really nice. Yeah, I just, I feel
Anna Palumbo 1:20:29
I feel like it's a full circle, in a way, but not a circle back to where we started, but like more of a spiral, like a revisiting of all the things. But I yeah, I just, I do sense within me that this sort of chapter of transformation is like, it's not like it's coming to a close, but it's kind of like things are settled now. So I feel like I'm able to speak with clarity and understanding of the journey where I wasn't before. I think you know, had I even been more online that day? I was still very much in it. And so to be able to kind of, like, have a bit of a higher up view. It's, it feels good to share. It feels like, yeah, a completion, in a way.
Josh Lavine 1:21:35
I I'm so glad you were down to do this. It. It's amazing. It's just so cool to capture it these two moments in time. And I mean, the difference is palpable. And I just think it's, I think it's a really inspiring example of an attachment type and a particular nine like coming into themselves and withstanding the turbulence on the journey to become myself and then to settle into this new sense of solidity and self Ness,
Anna Palumbo 1:22:06
yeah, yeah. Well, and you know what it's like, I feel, I feel happier now than I have felt in like that. I can even remember there is just such a juiciness to the human experience, because I feel like I'm here for it, and so, yeah, I just, I just feel so grateful for, you know, the events large and small that kind of led Me to the despair of the beginning of the journey. And you know, I know I'll get to another mountain to climb, but I'm really enjoying this, this place where I'm at right now. It's great.
Josh Lavine 1:22:58
Well, thank you for doing this, and thanks for sharing yourself in this moment. Yeah, my pleasure. Thank you for tuning in to this conversation with Anna. If you liked this conversation, then please click the like button or hit subscribe if you're watching on YouTube or if you're listening to this as a podcast, then you can leave up to a five star review, and also you can leave a comment if you're listening on Apple or Spotify. Those are free and very effective ways to support me and the show and the work that we do at The Enneagram School. And if you're curious to learn more about the Enneagram or what we do at The Enneagram School, then I would love for you to come check us out at our website. You can go to the Enneagram school.com and there's a lot of free content on the website, just written content about basic Enneagram stuff, as well as a catalog of all the interviews that we've done, just like this, that you can browse by type or instinctual stacking and that kind of thing. And I also would love for you to get on our email list. And when you get on our email list, we'll send you a free one pager that kind of is a brief guide to the nine types. And finally, I also would love for you to check out our intro course, which is a great place to start if you're a beginner. It lays out all the basic concepts that make the Enneagram, the Enneagram, it's also a great thing to refresh yourself, if you're advanced in the Enneagram, just kind of to see how all of the concepts cohere into a framework that produces the nine types. If you feel that you would be a good candidate to be interviewed on the show, I'd love to hear from you. You can contact me through the contact form on the Enneagram school's website and let me know what your type is, and also preference very strongly goes to people who have been officially typed by the typing team at Enneagram or.com you can go check out their typing services of their website, in my view, they're the world's most accurate Enneagram typing service, and they have a special way of typing through video and collage analysis. You can also go to their members area. They have like a subscription, where you can watch them type celebrities in real time and learn how they type from the experts. Finally, this podcast what it's like to be you, as well as The Enneagram School, as well as enneagrammer, exist in a wider universe of content that is produced by our. A team of collaborators and Enneagram experts. I invite you to check out sincesomnia, which is a podcast about dreams and the unconscious in the Enneagram. And I also invite you to check out a new podcast that we are producing called the house, called House of Enneagram. And all the links will this will be in the show notes, but house of Enneagram is kind of the the one creative roof that we are all now living under, producing conversations about different nooks and crannies in the Enneagram, as well as using the Enneagram as a lens to look at art and politics and current events and TV shows and things like that. So you can check all that out at the house of Enneagram page again, links in the show notes. All right, that's it for me. Thank you very much for tuning in, and I will see you next time you
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