Moses 0:00
I intended this reflection to be for what happened at the end of the second episode. I tried to make a couple recordings here, and it went on for too long. So like, it was intended to be edited into, like, I don't know, like 15 minute, 10 Minute outro, but the best way I can do outros is that like an hour long and loaded explanation. Welcome
Josh Lavine 0:28
to another episode of what it's like to be you. I'm Josh Lavine, your host, and on this show, I interview accurately typed guests about their experience as their Enneagram type. Today is a special episode. We are here for round three of Moses Williams, who is an 18 year old social self pres 5.6 with 513, tri fix. And remember that Moses is on the autism spectrum, and he, in our previous episodes, has been wrestling with issues of social instinct, sexual instinct, how to navigate social and sexual dynamics in a way that he can actually get what he wants, navigating these tender needs for social and sexual connection, and all of the complications of doing that, both as a type five and also as someone who is on the spectrum, this particular episode is different from anyone I've ever done, because this is not the two of us talking together. This is Moses's final reflection after the last episode about what happened to the relationship that he was very moved by at the end of last episode, but which, after that episode fell apart. I read a little portion of his email to me at the end of last episode, but I also invited him if he wanted to share a short reflection video that I might tack on to the last episode. And instead, instead, I got this, which is a almost one and a half hour reflection, which Moses kind of makes fun of himself about in the beginning this episode, just the difficulty he has with having a short reflection. And I wanted to comment on this because it's just so five. Five is the type that it's, you know, they can be kind of reticent and withdrawn, but once you get them going about something, they're interested, it is hard to get them to stop. And Moses has a lot to say, a lot to reflect upon. And I want to say too that to me, what this reflection is, is, it's a, it's really, it's, it's an amazing display of vulnerability, processing, a relationship that went wrong, through the mental center, getting to the heart at the end and, and actually, not just at the end. I mean, there's a lot of heart in the whole thing, but there is obviously a lot of mental processing going going on. So this, I'm seeing this as a kind of a mental type five processing a difficult relationship, coming to terms of the wound and determining a stance about how he's going to approach life and relationships going forward. So I'm publishing this as a standalone episode, and I am very excited for you to learn, once again, from my friend Moses. And if you would like to learn more about type five or the Enneagram then I recommend you check us out at the enneagramschool.com all the resources are there. Without further ado, I'm excited for you to learn from Moses's final reflection. You
Moses 3:24
Oh, I'm recording this as a an afterthought of the episodes I did with Josh. And I really think for I think in retrospect, they are really, really good. And good, as in, not like, oh, was any kind of like how I wanted to be, or set up to be, or kind of like constructed it to be, but with how spontaneous and how real I was at the moment, and honest I was, and very frightfully embarrassing, they were really good.
Moses 4:27
And I think these were kind of, I think this is quite interesting, how, you know, like, it takes me a long time to basically think about, you know, like, these kind of inner dynamics, and how I feel about navigating the world and relationships, etc. Because usually, like, even though I'm like, I'm interested in the Enneagram, like. I've been interested in the Enneagram for, like, spend five, no, it's been five years now, and that, Oh, was it six years? I don't care, but I've been interested in Enneagram for a while, and ever since then, I've been, like, constantly, like, observing myself and like, oh, what type is this? What does this mean to myself? And it's very interesting to me. So like the constant observation, even though I do have the constant observation with traits and what I do and what the kind of dynamics were like, and also opening a curiosity to, why on earth do people hate me? Why don't does this happen? Like, what is this mess that I don't understand? I also realized that there's a whole lot of the conversation that I struggled to admit I don't even like a mini do in the like, I think, especially this reflection coming up as a majorly I intended this reflection to be for what happened at the end of the second episode. Um, and I tried to make a couple recordings here, and it went on for too long. So, like, it was intended to be edited into like, I don't know, like, it's a minute 10 Minute outro, but um, apparently, um, the best way I can do outros is that I had to, like, explain. The best way I could do intros and outros is that I'm allowed to do, like, an hour long and loaded um explanation, um, or, like, an overloaded amount of setup. And I'm like, Well, it can't like it every time, and it's like, every five minutes, I can just basically say what happened and how I felt this way, in this way. But I think it would just cut the entire thing, not most of the dynamics and much of the kind of reflection aspect of it, because that basically with what I teared up for was also had to do with an event which I was reflecting on, and also the thing with person who will not be named, I'm going to refer To as the person that I said was a good friend to me and hit the was, and is the event is essentially very complex, and also Being, rather, being a person who has a rather fairly difficult and complex relationship with its emotions, and also having fairly complex emotions. Of course, it's not going to take like 10 minutes. So yeah, so um, all right, um, basically, what happened was that, um, basically the person and I are no longer friends. Um, because I like I address them over issue with an issue with communication and Winders, wasn't he talking or wine earth? Like, if he's interested in this, if he's wants to do this kind of whole thing. And part of me is, like, most of it this out is just an incredible amount of skepticism, which I've had for a long time. Like, I do kind of, like, even with that skepticism, I do ask a question of, like, what does this mean? What does that mean? And, yeah, like, Hmm, where do I want to go with this? I do have this kind of, like skepticism about it, partly, because I am not used to having part of it is that I'm not particularly used to having a thing like this. And the second part is that he doesn't seem to be incredibly confident in it either, and I kind of use that like like, I think even with like, basically my goal for him is that like I like, as I progress further further further, I. Um into doing it more. It became apparent that my whole idea for this is like, I am going to like, I am going to help him see himself. I'm going to unlock a truth that he is not know, or at least he does know but doesn't want to activate, and I'm gonna be that person, because, first of all, he has his own psychological issues, to which, basically, for the sake of privacy, I won't explain here, but, um, he's basically like some of his traits. Is that he Oh, by the way, I think he's with John time. I'm not entirely sure of his tri fix, but I'm very, very sure that it's definitely nine. I'm not sure which wing, but I'm pretty sure he is a nine, five or nine, six, defying the maybe 953963, maybe some, I'm gonna guess some, 152, overlay and so press social. He's a very withdrawn, very cagey kind of person, very withdrawn person. He's really, really hard to get to know like, um and like, it takes a long time to reveal himself. Um, actually, now they take it might be like 936, or nine, but the things like, how's that? Heartman alone, but um, but basically, very withdrawn person, very cagey person, um, like, whenever we have conversations like it would take me a long like it would take a long time for him to actually get something, and I have usually exercised my patience enough for it where it's like, okay, well, I'm definitely interested in this, and I want to hear what this guy has to say. So yeah, yeah. And part of that, you know, is, like, part of, you know, taking too long, where it's like, you know, usually I'm a very quick person. I like to have things done right away. I like, you know, when I put something out, like, you know, if, like, if I'm interested in the conversations where, like, I want this engagement, like, right here, like I came like, like, I will be the one who would go out of his way to see him like I am pretty much, like, in kind of, like, a dynamic. I'm the masculine force and PSE feminist force. Like, I'm the more direct. Let's get going. I'm going to see this, what's happening, and I'm doing this, and he is the more like the person who just leaves me on and maintains that kind of mystery, and is very, very super with John. So that's another aspect the Yeah, so, yeah, very interesting kind of, like, opposite dynamic that was also really, really, really interesting to me, because usually the best, like, my favorite type of relationships, and my favorite type of relationships are when I actually are more is and when I'm usually the active one, like when I call the shots, but I do this, when I do that, and I'm not really like outright. Like, as of recently, like, I'm like, I realized that I'm not really like, I uh, like, of course, I'm not particularly outgoing. I'm not a whole on, like, you know, I just go straight up to people, because part of it's being a strategist, and also people are just figuring out people, it's just like a huge gray area hidden with bombs that I don't even know about, and that was so because of that, it's like, yeah, I'm not particularly outgoing. And I do think about like, sometimes I do think about this person. Seems interesting. I would like to go see what this thing is all about, and I want that. But
Moses 14:27
as far as the past few months, I meeting people in real life is just making new friends in real life is difficult because I'm not particularly well. First of all, the only place I go to in public are church, because I'm forced to and school and work in which I'm very slow to new relationships at work, and I don't And unless, like it takes me a lot I did. That. And also like me, not like I've been in this environment before, and also I'm graduating in a month, and also kind of being very, very wary about, like, Okay, well, who am I gonna actually spend time with? Because actually worth being with? That's been fairly tricky to me, and I've been terrified of it. So it's like, well, you know, eventually I will leave. And it's like, well, why are we even here? That'd be there with part of it, and also the other part is that I don't regularly hang out with people. I don't text or I don't call people at all. I rarely text. And I mean rarely text as in that there's like, I could think of like, one person who I actually consistently, consistently talk with as of now and but, yeah, basically, I don't go out very much. That's just and I don't like, I don't know what it is like, like, I repeatedly see people who date and which, by the way, of course, I'm not dating. I repeat, repeatedly see people who like so many people around me, like around my age, have dated or have a bunch of friends and have like, a kind of community and inner circle and get invited to, like, parties or things or events and whatnot, and that's something that really happens for me. That's something that I don't get like I well as a very recently, I did get invited to see moving, but that was it out of what, two years, three years, actually, it's been a lot like I got, yeah, like being invited to something, or actually someone asking for my number, means a lot to me. To me in that that's something that just doesn't happen and something that I don't see on the table. Like, very immediately, very quickly, because I don't warm up to people and, you know, like, that's like, I see it as a possibility. Like, I like, kind of going all the way is kind of like walking through fire, like going all the way in with someone. It's like, it's like, wait, wait, wait, wait, hold on. And to me, it's like, I need to actually make sure that this is going to be the exact thing. Like, this is going to happen. Like what I imagined is going to happen, and if it is definitely going to happen, then I will have no problem, just I will have absolutely no issue, going straight to it. So yeah, there we go. I yeah, like, like, for example, like, with the person who would not be named, him asking for my number was incredibly special to me, because it was like, like, first of all, like, he didn't like, at first impression, he didn't seem like a person who has a lot of friends at all,
Moses 18:28
and a very withdrawn, introverted person. And him asking what I was like, Well, what's this?
Moses 18:36
And also, I saw him reading a book one day, and like, Well, this guy seems interesting. And then he left and like, well, whatever, many minutes a second time, immediately I was like, that's the only thing I want. That's the only thing I need right now. And I will go through this, and that is the only thing that I will be sure to go all the way in for. And, yeah, but essentially, it's like, That's not the thing that naturally had. Like, I don't, I don't normally have it. And also, like, having an inner circle, having, like multiple people, that's kind of like a community sort of thing. That's not something that just, I don't have it. I just don't, I don't feel, or at least experience myself with having one like, I think there's this kind of like, like people or like this, like, this kind of human experience. It's like a virtual reality simulation sort of thing, where it's like, you know, like, like, like, you know, how someone can, you know, um, like, you watch two people, uh, talk, and, you know, they're having fun, and they're seeming to enjoy each other and laughing and joking and whatnot, and they see one of these people do the same thing to you. It's like, holy cow, what? What is this? You. Yeah, is this supposed to be something that is kind of like an example? Is this? Like, what? What in the world is this? And it kind of seems surreal where it's like, you know, anybody can experience it. It's always like, what does that mean? Like, where's the part of it? It's like, commentating on, kind of the realistic game. And also, even with the person, with being interested in people, like, if, like, sometimes, like, I'm like, of course, being interested in psychology, like hearing about like, a person's issues or troubles or drama, it's kind of like, Wow, what a world is. This is like, so odd, like, and, you know, I still don't understand how people can just have drama over, like, he said, said this, she said, But of course, part of knowing the Enneagram is that, yeah, you're gonna have to go find people. And the other part, and because, you know, you're gonna have to go find people to actually, you know, see how it actually works in real time. And, yeah, that's, to me, it's like, you know, like hearing about, like, what people do or who they are. And, you know, I'm not particularly interested in, you know, everyone, what everyone's up to, but it's like that reveals a whole interesting kind of psyche that says something about someone I really like, someone who I really like, abnormal People, because it's like, they are the ones with with really strange and kind of, really, they're the people who are incredibly strange. And, you know, don't, it's like, you know, they are kind of like the shadow aspect of, like, this kind of normalized or kind of rootish society, they are basically against what everyone else is. So, yeah, like to like, you know, they experience like, they internally experience other things, or that, you know, most people would not consciously see in themselves, or at least not really. Maybe there's something that maybe people just don't have by default, but also it's something that people are like, like, you know, like, even people who are like, overtly like, you know, I think people who are incredibly like, I don't know, I ideally. This is very ideally, because I don't find many of them out there, or at least I don't find any of them out there. I like people who are, like, you know, more interested in like, taboos or like, even people who are sexual deviants, and kind of my gravitation to people who are and kind of that way where, like, you know, it's not like putting a brand or label on anything. But even with people who are LGBTQ plus and new diversion, like I don't, I don't realize that they're new diversion until they actually tell me they're new diversion. It's like, oh, but kind of my and, you know, not all of them have to be exactly that way, but kind of my interest in people who are out of the norm is that, I think, like, I think with LGBTQ plus six especially, is that, you know, like, first of all, LGBTQ plus is nothing new, but it is something phenomenally different than much of the heterosexual, cisgender world in which This kind of like, this normality, that like
Moses 24:22
normality of, you know, you know, men being with men, and women being with women.
Moses 24:30
And you know, if the opposite sexes come together, it's like, there's something phenomenally kind of, like different underneath it, where it's like, like this kind of fear around it and, and I, like, I don't have, like, a and I, and I think, you know, this kind of, like, a very and like, I, I think I might have said sometime in I might have. Said some time ago, and where it's, you know, I don't even care what he said, but basically, I do think that everyone, regardless of their sexual orientation or gender identity, is the kind of anti sex in that there's kind of, like this prudence, or like this like, I think I'm talking about like sexualizing blind spot where everyone has this kind of, like, literal fear of, like, like, the act of sex is like, disgusting to them, and part of that is like, what they've been usually exposed to. It's like, you know, kind of the separation within pornography and art, in art nowadays, like, instead of like, usually having nudes or sexuality infused with arts the past, like with Greek statues, Roman statues, and the Renaissance as kind of this Western Eurocentric example. And nowadays it's split into like, I don't know, kind of this cinema where it's like, you're not like, it's kind of split in a way, where it's like, generally, like, even we're having sexuality coming up in culture where, but it's kind of like, you know, there's kind of nothing. It's kind of like there can be, like this hint of sexuality. And, you know, like sexual projection is inevitable, and then about um, it's kind of like art as like as its standard is wholesome, or at least, there's no thought about um, the sexual desire to protection. And pornography is so, like, blatant, and on the nose, and here, like these, oh yeah, and like these kind of, like bodies on bodies over and over and over again. And it's like so to the point where it's kind of like boring. And even though, yes, it does get you on it gets pretty blatant. And that didn't happen boring really quickly, because, you know, it's so blatant, so on the nose, like, it's kind of like, you know, even with pornography, with, like, having shady actors and kind of like, at an art form, it's not really particularly artistic. Because, you know, pornography is like pornography made nowadays. It's kind of like explicitly made to, you know, get a person sexually activated. So, but anyways, like, there is this kind of fear of sex, this kind of fear of bestiality, or like, this kind of imbeciality, as in, kind of like getting in touch is kind of this primal and kind of like this, like even this superhuman nature, where it's like, kind of similar to, like this kind of the world, to power, this kind of independence, that and ownership of who they are that people simply don't have. And, I mean, it's like everywhere, but I think with, but what I think with people who are, and this isn't reflective of, you know, and like, I think people who are, like the LGBTQ women especially, and people who are that way, I think they are seeing something in a way where it's like the heterosexual, the heteronormative world is crippling, and it's kind of prudish too, like this, this kind of fear of like, You know, doing whatever you want, and it doesn't necessarily mean that heterosexuals all heterosexuals don't do delay. I think there are some heterosexuals who are very, very pro sex and but there is this way where it's like, um, you know, like, I think kind of owning this kind of, I think being something different, being something new, is in reflection as a way where it's basically kind of like being not, you know, part of the culture where it's like, you know, is, is a massive are massive standards in themselves, really necessary. Like, what's the point of them? So, yeah, there's that. So anyways, with this person, I basically, like, I address him about communication. He hasn't really like, like, he's not really consistent with it. Like, like, my like, how do I start with this? Okay, so basically, I. You know, I, like, sometimes I would text him and I basically say something, and he wouldn't follow through with it, or he wouldn't say anything. He's like, Well, are you really interested in it? Like, I had this kind of like skepticism where it's like, okay, well, maybe he isn't interested, and maybe it he's not gonna get anything out of it. Like, maybe he's just a liar. Oh yeah, I think, oh, maybe, oh, maybe. I don't remember if I mentioned this before, but basically he said that he's good at lying. He's really good at basically masking and pretending to be something that people wanted to be. And that was really odd to me, because it's like, why would you do that? What's the point of it, what's the use of it? And kind of that use of it is, like, well, to get out of trouble. And I'm like, Yeah, but you know, like, I I haven't gotten I have gotten into multiple troubles just for speaking my mind. I've gotten into trouble multiple times for just doing what I want to do, like skipping on a martial arts when my father told me that I should do it, and, like, I don't want to do it, and I've gotten too used to it where it's like, kind of like a care. So, yeah, it's kind of like borderline, like, I would rather die than do something without question. Are basically I would, and also I would rather die than, you know, pretend to be something that I'm not. It's like, well, what's the point of that? Point of that? Like, um, like, for example, when I was a kid and I was like, a cold hearted, sociopathic SON OF A BITCH back then, like I hated someone and I pushed him down on the way to school, and the teacher was aware of it, called my mother, or maybe it was a different issue, like I've gotten in, and I've gotten into, like, a few skirmishes, but basically what happened is that this teacher pulled me aside and told me that I had to write an apology letter to and I sat there for hours, writing absolutely nothing, staying silent. It's like, I'm not gonna write this. And then finally, it was like, Okay, I'm gonna go write something. And the teacher read a paper, not knowing what was written, and thought, oh, this person has apologized. Okay, it's all over now it's good. And my mother came and met the teacher, and the teacher gave her the letter. This is a letter, and my mother remembers the teacher being so enthusiastic, and, you know, because it's like she thought that I apologize, and my mother thought, oh, it's all over. Now he apologized. And so basically, when she opened a letter, she was shocked. She was mortified. She was horrified, because what she read was, basically, I'm not sorry, I'm not gonna apologize. I hate him. I And that's, that's kind of the just of what it said. I don't remember exactly what I said. I was like, what six or five at the time? Again, cold hearted son of a bitch. I don't know what the fuck I just I don't exactly remember what exactly I said, but that was the, isn't it? That was basically the whole entire message. And, you know, it's like, kind of this stance where it's like, nobody can make me apologize for something that I am not going to apologize for, and nobody is going to, you know, force me to be something that I'm not. Nobody is going to just like, I'm not. I zero interest in doing kind of these normal things like apologizing and forgiveness and whatnot. Like, I I don't I like, you know, I don't get angry over like, menial things, like, if someone, like, made a mistake, like, bump me, or, I don't know, like,
Moses 34:01
took my chair without or took my chair like, oh, well, who cares? It's fucking terror. It's like, this small thing, but if someone basically hurt me personally, he's like, Yeah, I am not gonna forgive you for that. Like, you have zero reason to enter this place again. Like, how fucking dare you. And, yeah, it's like, you know, if you basically, like, proved how stupid and ignorant I was and how naive I was, then that's not something I'm gonna forgive. That's like, this is not gonna happen again, and that means that I am not going to include you here anymore. So that was it, essentially. So anyways, on the communication aspect, he like, in person, like, Okay, so basically, in January, he said that, you know, like, I'm not in a mood. Like. So I noticed, like, he was not communicating, which is like, a very frequent pattern from months before, and, you know, maybe like, and basically, he said that I'm not in the mood to talk with everyone right now, and I'm dealing in world personal shit, and I need to take care of this by myself. And I'm like, oh, okay, I'll wait. Because it's like, well, he set up this thing where it's like, okay, I respect that. Like, if a person doesn't want to talk, I am willing to just say, Oh, okay. I won't do this. I won't engage. I won't to do the control, which I could do is like, Okay, deal with this thing. Because, you know, if it has nothing to do with me, it's like, well, and you have this priorities, like, Okay, go do the priority. And I reach out two weeks later after patients or otherwise, just to see, you know, if they still up for like, I don't know what it is by lack of patience. And I think I said something when he told me that he wasn't moot. I think it was that. I think I did say, Where's like, if you wanted to reach out to me, then, like, like, like, let me know if you wanted to reach out to me. Like, if you reach out to me, then it's like, okay, that's kind of like the green line. But apparently he's not done that. Yeah, he really hasn't done much of the green line. So I waited and then reach out. And, you know, we talked in person after class, and he didn't get the impression that he was like, you know, like, he's tired all the fucking time, but, and so it was like, Yeah, okay. Like, you know, versus being tired and also withdrawn and introverted, and I being this kind of, like, found this mental energy where it's like, I don't fucking care how tired you are or like, I don't like, I don't get tired, I don't do this, I don't do that. And I'm gonna, like, if I focus on something, I will go out of my way to do this, and I will expend every single goddamn thing in me just to get it. So that's when I was with him, and he was tired all the time, but so it was like, Well, okay, fair enough, but there's probably like, he probably wasn't interested, but he did not come across to me as disinterested, like he didn't like, he didn't say, I don't want to talk. He didn't just say, I'm not interested in this. And you know, if he did say that, then he would have, I would have read it as like, oh, okay, I'm just gonna go away now and wait again. Because it's like, oh yeah. Like, like, if you set it up in person, then it's like, then that's saying that to me. It's like, Oh yeah, yeah, okay, okay, got it. But basically, with with habit of communication, was that okay? Like, you haven't been responding very often, you haven't engaged much. I'm the only one reaching out to you. I am really interested, severely interested in what you wanted to do, what you were not just what you wanted to do, but also what you're interested in. Why haven't you done that? And I addressed him about that, and I was, you know, like, I knew that he had a lot of personal issues and psychological issues, but to me, it's like, at this point I'm like, Nope, you gotta explain yourself. I don't care. And not like, I don't care where it's like, you know, they're invisible. It's more of like, they shouldn't be a justification for why on earth this is happening. And basically, he gave this kind of answer where it's like, I wasn't joking when I said that I wasn't in the mood to talk. And to me, it's like, well, if you weren't joking, then why under did you not give the impression that you weren't interested? Why didn't you just tell me I don't want to talk to you, like, upfront, like, when I reached out, you could have just said, I don't want to talk to you. I don't want this, I don't want that, and it would have been over, like, I wouldn't even be addressing this. So, yeah, and what that basically said to me was, like, I was, you know, I'm actually gonna get to that one that part later, and then I address inverter words, like, Okay, well, we have like, this is what I think it is, and this is what I'm looking for. This is what I thought it was. Yes, and I don't know what you're thinking about this thing. Like, what did like, I thought we had something where it's like, yeah, we were gonna do this, and we have this relationship, but it's like, what the fuck was this all about? Like, what the fuck are you about? Like, why in the hell are you here? Why the hell am I here? And he didn't answer that, and I basically pushed more and more and more. This is all via text, by the way, which basically it's like, you know, I did it by text because I didn't like the idea. Like, the only places we could actually meet are in school, and in school, there are interruptions, and I don't like interruptions. And I think of retrospect, it's kind of naive to just not just go straight up in person and be like, Hey, we have unfinished business. Yeah, but part of it is like, you know, I don't know when his bus usually got there. And we needed bus slot, by the way, and it took a long like, I like, and so it's like, you know, it's about to be coming out, and then this conversation will be interrupted. And I have so many things to say, and so many things about it, so many questions, because like it most, like in most, like the most gray area is difficult, and the other part is that I know that he has a pattern for evading my questions, like multiple times, which should have been striking as a red flag to me. Oh, any other red flag that sort of occurred to me was that he's good at lying where I'm probably like, I asked him, like, why don't you just do what you want to do? And you know is I really particularly good at it to be honest? So, yeah, I put started by text, and I was like, You know what, I'm I, I was probably like, done with it. It was like, Okay, well, I'm gonna be in later, uh, sometime. And then a week later I saw him, like, a week after the confrontation, I saw him talking to someone, and there's like, whoa, what? I thought you weren't in the mood to talk with anyone. What the hell is that about? And I addressed him about that, and then he did something which, like I I neglected to say in the past 1020, minutes, 30 minutes, 40 minutes. Now that basically, I don't want him to tell this to anyone, because it's under their business. And it's like, well, first of all, why on earth would too, why on earth would anyone tell this about anyone? Well, it's because, to me, it's like, well, to this one, in this case, um, in September, I asked him to be my partner, basically, and rather slowly, because it's like, I don't know how this works. And it's like, What the hell are you looking for? And also, like, it's kind of funny where it's like, like, I saw the movie queer, where basically, in one of the first sex scenes before one of the first sex scenes, Daniel Craig goes up to this guy in a bar, offers him a drink, and a guy puts it back. And I, I think what Daniel Craig asked that guy was, why did he look so sad, um,
Moses 43:51
and, um, I don't think they really said any more than, like, five or seven sentences, and then the next thing they were fucking. And I'm like, what? Like? What the fuck happened was, like, how do you like what? And I've repeatedly like it. It's kind of confusing to me. This is like, I don't know how to start. I don't know what to do about it. Like, what do the humans do? How do people start dating all of a sudden, for no reason, um, and I have repeatedly heard so many goddamn stories about like, um, like, people just like, meeting up. And they're like, Hey, you want to be my partner, sure. And I'm like, what, like, Who the fuck are you people? Um, like, like, what So, yeah, yeah, basically, I asked that, and he rejected it. And I was like, okay, and it might not even a because it's like, well, why on earth would anyone just tell someone? About their poor, relational woes. I found out that he did tell someone about it, and to be like, like, he mostly was flustered. And then it was like, you know, I'm gonna explain it. Because it's like, well, it's out there now too late. And also, yeah, it's kind of like, you know, explaining is like, Okay, well, we were, like, already talking about social gossip then, well, I found out in a way where it's like, you know, we were doing social gossip. And I'm like, Well, what kind of people are you into this kind of thing? Where it's like, yeah, I, you know, I was the one introducing just kind of like wacky topics to those people, which, so it was like, Yeah, well, fair enough. But you know, basically I neglected to just tell them, yeah, it's not a penguin's business. But of a naive day, we're like, why not anyone? Tell anyone about that it's not their business, yeah, but anyways, like, it's not like, it's like, it's not particularly, particularly their business, unless, if you know the person can, like, solve it or figure it out, or maybe it's like, interesting stories that happened, but it's like, you know, that's not for you to get involved. So yeah, but that was the rather vulnerable moment for me, where it's like, I do admit, where it's like, I want something further than that. And yeah, basically, just outright tell me something about my pain. Is like, well, that fucking sucks. That's not gonna happen again. And but basically, and yeah, that's what happened. Anyways, he told someone and that someone did not like it. It was a school admin, by the way, and I borderline got in trouble for it, because he's like, I kept answering this person and this person instead of a clear boundary about what they said anyway, he's like, that's not clear. They didn't, like, they didn't just say, like, they said, like, silence. That's an answer. I'm done. That's what they said. And yeah, it's like, yeah, I'm done with this conversation. I'm like, done with this relationship. Like, what does that mean? That is not a clear boundary. It's a boundary thing. I'm done. Like, I'm not gonna get further where it's like, or otherwise, like, I'm not interested in Q anymore. So to me, it's like, well, I'm done. It's like, What? What? To me, like, find this isn't even an answer. Like, you could just straight up say, like, at this point, you could just say, I don't like you, or I do like you. But wait, not now, not this. I don't want to talk about it, or I don't want to, you know, engage further in this thing that you want. And if you just said that directly, then I would have been like, oh, okay, fine. And to me, I um, like, if you're like, if you're dumb in the conversation, it's like, Well, okay, we don't have to, like, like, I at the point I was really angry with it, whereas, like, I still want this, like, you know, like, if I'm like, posting further further further, I'm stewing, stewing over that. And that means it's like, I still want this, like I don't understand why you don't, and I am basically the one who's going to, you know, help you with something. I want to unlock a truth in you. I want to actually get this done and figured out right away. And if you're not going to do that, then you're not helping me, and you're not helping yourself either, and you're doing much more of a harm to yourself than you are to me. Like, if my life wasn't, like, if my income investments were bad enough, and, you know, his own psychological issues and whatnot. So it's like, yeah, I will actually help you with that if you don't, like, unless if you keep hiding yourself and so, yeah, like, I can't help you, because you just keep hiding yourself so because of this, right? So, yeah, basically, the, like, the, I think what it was is that, basically it's, I. I think what he did was, like, basically he broke that one, like, well, oh, actually, to go back to get the thing. Basically, it's like, you know, I want to get something out there. And if he does not engage further this, if he does not do this, and it's like, well, what are you doing? And to me, like, if you don't want to talk, talk, to talk about it anymore, then it's like, my mission is pointless. My it's futile. It was. It's been a whole year, and I have made a huge mistake the entire time. It has been a huge here, and he has made that entire mistake the entire time, because he's the one who asked, he's the one who asked for my phone number. I thought, like, oh, well, I'm not gonna see him again. He's the one who asked my phone number, okay? And to me, is like, it was like, yeah, that's been your part. You know, it's not my part to, like, follow through. But it's like, it couldn't have started if you know you It couldn't have started if you didn't do this thing that was so meaningful to me. So it was like, yeah, it was your mistake for making friends, for being friends with me in the first place. Because what you're expecting is not what you're expecting, okay? And part of that is that, like, I'm like, I have a totally different expectation, like, different idea of relationships and friendships, which I don't like defining it. I don't even like, I don't even like seeing the word friend, and I much more comfortable saying it now, um, because it's like, well, it's kind of like using it for, like, a better term or word, like, um, even using the word love is like, I hate that word because it's so mostly vulnerable, but basically, like, kind of, like, my idea of, like, certain relationships and certain social things are very, phenomenally different than the expected role or norm or what anybody else thinks it's like. You know, you can make a definition of what that definition what that means. And, you know, you can have necessarily, like, everybody can have a different friend. Everybody can have a different definition. But there's something rather universal with the entities. Like, I don't have it like, um, like, my idea for something is something that is fairly intuitive and kind of like, something that you could feel and something that I cannot use for words at all. So I think what he was expecting is like, I don't have this kind of level of friends. It was like, No, it's not even a friendship. At this point. I use the word friendship because it's like, well, we like each other and we meet each other. I suppose that, in a way, is kind of like, you know, that's an active friendship, but what we had underneath that is perhaps something else. And I think it's kind of like this way, where it's like, I want to change someone, I want to influence someone I want to kind of like, and this is my huge, like, social zone, one two going on here, but I'm gonna, like, throw eight bombs on a person's mind, and Just to make, you know, new ground for something like, I will destroy every single aspect of these things with new things. And, you know, um, you know, revolutionize the whole damn thing. Um, so, yeah, um. And I think what he was expecting was something different and something fundamentally
Moses 53:45
incompatible. And I suppose this kind of like speaks on how like zone like, you know, most people are zone three, two and maybe two three like, I think there are fewer, definitely fewer, two threes out there on those snooty ass stock up. Goody, two shoes. Two Shoes, son of a bitches, get legend public. But basically, like how three two is, like, really common, especially in social where it's like, place, ability, and even like family, or even, like a whole idea of the community is very like three two, where it's like, you know, we have people who regularly check up with each other and, like, make sure they're okay, and, you know, like, kind of even asking about their day, or something basic like that. It's like, you know, that's a whole, like, three two thing. It's like, that basic check of how you're doing. And also that's extroverted feeling as well. Whereas, like, you know, part of that, that's part of that, that's part of extroverted feeling. But yeah, I think the whole notion of like, three, two and and two, three is like, doing what's appropriate, doing what's right. And I don't have that said to me at all. I just don't. And unless, if it's like, particularly useful, like, where. It's like, you know, like, I like, I know, I'm not sure where my expert feeling is. It's definitely I don't like it like, I'm I'm wavering between ENTJ and ITV, but basically I don't value it at all. And it's like, I don't need to, like, cater myself just for to think of other people if I have to, then it's like, well, I'm not doing this, or what. I will find a way where I can do this without having to do that and basically destroying it and destroying the original order and making it my own. And so, yeah, that kind of idea of relationships that both of us had, which might have had, which turned out to be absolutely false, and, um, I don't know, like it's so, so, um, F maybe there was something else, but it's kind of gone now. It's a it's literally like a midnight rambling right now.
Moses 56:16
Anyways, this thing that had so basically him telling someone about this thing, and worst of all, the school admin was that this is, like, he was really serious about, you know, I don't want to gage further. And to me, it's like, if you're not going to gage further, like, if you don't, like, if you don't want to converse, it like, first of all, the thing you could have done was just block me. Like, if you don't want to talk about this, then it's like, okay, we don't we're done with the entire relationship. Like, okay, if we're not going to discover this, then we are not anything. It's kind of like, like, even I had this kind of like, existential social dread, where it's like, imagine if I ran out of things to say in a month, what the hell do I do? Yeah, and I listened to Kim's episode, which was really cool. Oh, by the way, everyone go watch all the interviews. I don't fucking care if you're like self type as a four or five or some to make yourself a natural, just watch all damn interviews. They're good. They're really good. All of them are really worthless to especially the ones that are not really that integral focus. But anyways, where it's like, if I ran out of thing, like if I I don't remember exactly what it was, but if I don't have anything to do, like, if I had nothing to do, or if I ran out of things to do, then it's like, What in the hell am I here for? Like, if we're not like, like, if we're not like, something like, if we're not talking about like, Thor's and weaponry and arson, arson and shit, then it's like, what the hell is this all about me? It's like, you know, if we're not going to like, you know, if we're not going to, like, have like, interrupting doorstop, if we're not going to have anything to talk about, then it's like, what? What the hell are we here for? Like, we can't just, like, show up and expect that. Like, oh, we like each other. Some of us, like, no, like, what Come on. But anyways, yeah, like, if you had to show up and expect people to, like, I don't know, you know, like, be friends and someone, it's like, okay, so what like you show up and talk about, like, some day to day stuff. It's like, oh, I don't care. I wonder it. It's not that interesting to me. It's not sorry, unless it's like, particularly into my interest, or if it's like, there's something strange or something eccentric about this, sort of like, oh, I want to explore that, but it's just like, a piece of fucking cardboard in this thing. Oh, it's like, cardboard. It's like, you know, like, even the two that's popping up the camera right now is like, you know, like, if you're gonna talk about, like, this shoe, is like, well, I don't give a fuck about the shoe unless it's particularly interesting, yeah. Like, it's, you know, like, and part of it is like, maybe there's an incompatible way where we do have an idea of what we want and also what we're looking for, which I think gives me every right to like terminate the relationship. And also, I was fairly merciless in that, you know, it's like, well, I wanted to address this. This is the thing now, and I have like, on, you know, I'm very direct, and I'm on about it, and he hasn't said a single word about it. It's like, Good God, like you. Uh, come on. Like, enough with that kind of, like, just, like, if you just owe me, then it will be over, like, a second, and that's it. It's like, okay, fine, I'll do this. Like, I don't care what the answer is, like, I'm done. Like, I'm ready to, like, I'm ready for anything at this point. It's like, I don't want to, like, live lie anymore. Um, so yeah, so I think one of the things that I can reflect on that one I did let basically, I felt duped. I felt incredibly stupid. It's like um, it was really disappointing. And also it's just like, Well, why did I say this way? Why did I Why was I holding on to this? This is pointlessness, um, it's like, I was holding on to it. It's like, I like, I don't know what else to do. Like, we're like, it's like, this is my pet project. And like, I want this. I severely want this. Like, I severely want to actually, like, experience life, and this is the way I do it. But it's kind of like this idea where it's like, kind of like this fiction where it's like, oh yeah, like a relationship would fix everything, or a relationship is everything. And of course, it's not whenever that, like, everything cannot be solved by relationships. Like, you just have a really good relationship, that's it. You can be like, fucking poor, and I don't know, spiritually unconscious or incredibly dumb, but happy. So it was like, What? What does that mean in the end? But, um, I think there's the thing. Was like, I did let my heart, like, really feel that, and like I wanted to pursue what it told me. Like it told me, keep going do this. And I'm like, Okay, so we're gonna go do it. And I was like, I'm gonna at least try it out in someone in one of the one of the discord servers, very, very, very, very familiar person
Moses 1:02:06
that's me know, basically said that that you like, like, if You let your heart soar, then you really want.
Moses 1:02:22
And maybe that's, maybe that's exactly what the gist of it was. And I was really confused by it, because it's like, Well, what exactly did you win? Like, what is, why is the heart even here? Like, the heart has, like an object. So, it's like, you know, if, like, what did it win? What exactly did it win? Yeah, and I suppose, in retrospect, I think that, and that's a really, this is really this is really good statement, by the way. But I think, like, the point of like, it's kind of like, you know, why asking? Why is the heart even here? It's like, kind of like asking, Well, why is the mind here? Why is the body here? It's kind of like, you know, and I am not like, I'm still learning quite a lot, but to me, it's like, as of now, it's like, there is this, there is like, this whole thing where it's like, I lived the body wants to like. It's a part of the world, it's a part of nature, and it's to live it is to experience life as it is, to experience that kind of truth and to really be who you really want to be. And I let my heart go that way, and
Moses 1:04:11
it was broken. And I um, it was broken not by him, but by the disappointment of not getting what I want. It's like, no, like, of course the heart is still here. Like, it's just, you know. And it's kind of like, you know, like, um, you know how someone can offend you? Like, how can someone can attend to tear you down? I don't think it's people like tearing you down. It's that you let yourself be torn down by the idea that you are this and, um, basically nobody is doing anything like. Like the whole like your damn character is still here. You're like your damn heart is here. Your heart, your mind is looking like it's never gonna be broken, except by yourself, except by the idea that you know someone implanted in your brain, or that you came up with yourself, and you just let it happen like no person's idea is going to influence you, except for what you come up with yourself and because it's like, well, you're because it's like, well, the person is like, you know, and say whatever. It's like, the person has an idea. It's like, yeah, so what? Like, you can accept that, you know, what our idea is, true or false, but just letting yourself, like, you know, say, suck on something, and then get disappointed. It's not like, oh, like, it's not just that, oh, this person did this, or this person didn't do this, or that didn't happen, or things did not like, things outside of my control happened in a way where I didn't expect it to happen, or didn't want it to happen. And that disappointment comes because it's like there's an idea that I wanted, and the idea is not fulfilled by things that I cannot control, and I am going to decide what I will be like. I think it is incredibly valid to be disappointed, but is also, I think, valid that to have a kind of resilience. As well. Whereas, like, you know, it's, it's still fucking here, um, you have the choice to try again. You have the choice to, um, you know, keep it to yourself. It's not like, you know, it's not like you can just expose it to just anybody. But if you want to like, if you want it to be to someone that is like, you know, I suppose trying is worth it, because at least it's, you know, expressing a truth to someone who I think deserves it, like, Whoever has ears. Listen like, don't like as your girls. Do not ask your girls to the right people or the right to anyone who will accept it. Don't like anybody who wants like anybody who deserves it or wants it from you, then it's like, go ahead, go do it. Yeah, and it's rarely risky, because it's like, well, do they really want to like, I don't like the way I thought, like, my the thing with person will not be named is that I don't know. It's like, Hmm, well, okay, well, for lack of a better word, I'm gonna use the stipend, I don't know. I just want a bunch of intellectual disciples like I am, like, I kind of like, see myself like as there's speaking to the people, and the people mock him and laugh him, laugh at him. And, you know, there are very few people that he reaches out to. So eventually he separates from, and it's kind of like, you know, some people are only like, kind of this naivete where it's like, Yeah, everybody's gonna hear this, but that's not doable. Like to put yourself out there's like, you know, just kind of like, automatically, an elimination process where it's like, eventually it will be content out to this. It's not gonna be made for everyone, and I'm not made for everyone, and I know that, and I think the heart is even much fucking worse. And all the things, like, all the embarrassing shit that I said, if add two interviews that that adds that doubles down to the city of art.
Moses 1:08:50
So, yeah, yeah, with that, it kind of like letting it like feel, what it wants to feel is like,
Moses 1:09:07
I've chosen life, and I am Not really attached to this, these things that I thought would make it fulfilled. But
Moses 1:09:31
I think real fulfillment comes from actually living, and these objects are a part of it. And I. And the other part is that, you know, it's probably me like ignoring the other person's whole issues and maybe this other person's, you know, what is this person thinking about? Like, what is he you. Um, how does he feel? Which, by the way, he like, I like, I constantly like, I used to like, ask him why. In order to just for my phone number, what do you define his friend? He's like, I don't know. He's Oh god. I bet he's like, some third emotion, zero with that zero. But like, but like, over, obnoxiously avoiding his third attitude. And my 3e two is like, just like, I want to discuss this. I want to figure it out. Why aren't you doing this? But yeah, it's so weird. And also, I don't think I've found many threes out here in the real world to begin with, so maybe, and also more so weird people, weird and eccentric and very interesting people out there to begin with, so and that comes in. But you know, it's like there's something phenomenally hidden with this within this person, and maybe there's something not right for that person, and that's fine, and that's something that I accept. And maybe I do think that maybe he does want to pursue a certain individual truth. He wants to. I think underneath, it's like, you know, this whole thing about pretending to make other people happy and hiding himself. He really does want to do it. I think so that that's that's something that I think, but he's probably terrified. He's probably afraid. He's probably, you know, and there's a lot going on. But yeah, it's Anthony. Is like, what I thought I would do is that I would represent the kind of person who was like, I am not afraid of this. I am the person who actually has a spine. I am. I am the person who is like, willing to, like, walk to the fire. I've been very, very, very, very slow at that. So I'm kind of like, So in retrospect, it's like, yeah, I'm kind of a poor example. I want to be like a good role. I want to be like that role model for that person who is willing to, like, just straight up jump into a fiery pit to jump into the lion's den and, you know, just live and do it regardless. Yeah, Oh, that reminds me of like the story of Daniel and the lion's den, where Daniel prays to God, Daniel still upholds to His truth, and people rat him out and throw him into the lion's den, which I think maybe, like, of course, I don't have a specific example of this, but my idea of is like, well, lions are going to eat you. Like, lions are incredibly dangerous. And lions are also representations of the self, the representation of the sun. They're like, they're glorified in the sun, like lions are literally everywhere, like we have the Lion of Judah God. And of course, lions are also not just majestic, but also dangerous, and will definitely have probably no problem killing you if they think they're food, their food. I That sounds like that. Last description sounds like I'm universally, universalizing carnivores to a degree, except, but anyways, the willful like throwing yourself into the lion, like being thrown into the lions, and it's kind of like you're thrown into you to dangers of living your own truth. And kind of the thing where it's like this kind of power and tyranny of ignorance is like, you know, people will put you in trouble even if you just say, What do you think is right? Like just to declare two plus two plus two equals four instead of two plus two equals five, and people punish you for saying two plus two equals four if you know like, are you willing to like die for your own truth? Are you willing to like you know? Are you willing to like be who you want to be, even if you die? If you die, like, what? And then it's like, well, what good is the life, if you're not really being honest, what good is the life? What good? What good of a life is it if you're not really living and if you're not even doing something that, um, reflects. Self and even, you know me, not like, I have, like, the upper aspects, like, you know how to like, be a human being and all that, where's like and like and not like. It's kind of like the self pity, where it's like, oh, I not proud of these ass, like, like, I'm so weird. I'm so alien. It's like, well, everyone else is like, alien creature. Everyone is. It's kind of like this connotation where it's like all these other peasant folks, and I'm like, beyond this shit, but I recognize where it's like, I have this. Why can't I have this? And I've decided where it's like, I want this, but I don't know how, and I want to live that way, but I've a massive amount of fear in it. So, yeah, it's really, you know, one I think, in reflection is like, at the moment, sort of like, I'm, I'm 100% over with with it, like I, well, I'd say I'm 99% over with it. Like 1% of me in the back of my mind, say, hoping that, like, maybe thinking like, well, he might come back, and if he does come back, then I'm prepared for it. And if he does want to talk again, it's like, I'm prepared for that too. A tough aspect is that, you know, it was like, well, it's more of like, well, I'm prepared if it is going to happen, although it's very likely not going to happen, for all the things and Reasons and it's I
Moses 1:17:05
still, you know,
Moses 1:17:26
the so hard to talk about, because it's like, I it's like, yeah, something happened. And, you know, I felt like there's these things, but I feel nothing. It's like, that's it. I don't know, like I I don't really feel anything right now. It's like, I suppose I was borderline on the edge of feeling certain things when I mentioned some things for the past hour, but as of now, it's like, I feel nothing was like, like, I tried to, like, take a few seconds, whereas, like, what do I need to say? What am I gonna say about this? Because I got nothing I don't know. I'm done. Like, I pretend I completely like, he's like, Well, why am I wishing for him to come back? I don't know. It's like, I still, I feel really am interested in him. I still really like him, but I I am more so accepting that it is incompatible and it's not going to happen if that's the case, because, you know, it's not something that is within my control. It's not something within my it's not something that my hands can manipulate, unless I happen to be a really good emotional manipulator, which I'm not a good emotional manipulator at all, but, but it's like that's something that I simply cannot do as No, it's irreversible. It's damaged, it's destroyed. And if it's ever rebuilt, then it's gonna take a long time to be rebuilt. It's gonna be harder to rebuild, or maybe we're gonna have to make some entirely new ground. But you know what, if we're gonna have to make some entirely new ground, then it's gonna be a totally different person, which I don't think it's really possible, but if, by chance, like, if, like, if he wants to do that, then he will have to come with a serious change, and he has to, like, prove to me he's like, okay, Bucha, what thing, and are we really going to, like, discuss it as it is? Are we really ready for this? And he wasn't, and that's something that I. I accept, and that's,
Moses 1:20:11
that's simply something i That's simply something that I'm 100% accept. And you know, like, if that's something without my control. And maybe hopefully he, you know, if he doesn't want this, and it's like, okay, but if he does, but there's something like he's terrified, is it? Then it's like, well, go live, Richard. I I really believe that. You know, people must not give up some way. I don't really want to, like, steal from this interview, but I watched the, like, the American Psycho core three interview, where he said, I'm not giving up in heart, I'm not giving up on this. It was really powerful to me.
Moses 1:21:09
And kind of the way where it's where it's like, it's still here and it's not gonna go away like, you know, it felt like dying, but that's because you've Hold on, held on to the idea of something that you've held on to, something that you believe offered life to you, and you
Moses 1:21:41
need to be completely free from that and be born into something else. It's kind of like, um, like, um, like, it's still here. The heart is still here, the body still here, the mind is still here. It could be broken, but it could be like, like the heart can, like, you know, feel dead all of a sudden, like, it's like, you can feel like something has died within you. But it could be reborn. It could be, you know, into something else. It can because, you know, it's still here, and It has this kind of like Mysterious purpose. And
Moses 1:22:32
I and
Moses 1:23:07
I think to allow it to still be here is to never deny its existence and to live it fully is accepting that it it won't
Moses 1:23:29
accepting that it probably it won't get what it wants. There's a possibility you might not get what you want, but you might also do that. It's a risk. Life is essentially a risk, and especially in today's culture where people still hide a lot of their unconscious and a lot of the things that they don't want to reveal and don't want to live out, because the world, as much of the world as we know it, doesn't make time for it, like even with public education, which is not really educating students, but more so educating students enough to the degree where they can, you know, be intelligent enough to get a job or be functional and whatnot. And also mental workforce, where it's like, you're supposed to be normal, this way, that way, and again, zone, three, two everywhere, yeah. Three Two everywhere, where's like, anything that's kind of like, you know, zone one, or represents, kind of like being conscious is, like the top, or anything that's weird, which usually is unconscious, that's not a lot, um, but if we are going to. Fight for our lives, for that to allow to be your dentist cycle, like, in the end, it will do everything they can to fight for it, or at least to really live as we want to, like, what's the use of what's the use of living something that you don't want to live? And for me, it's like, what's the use of living a life that basically erases and denies some of the things in myself that I buried underneath, and I really wanted, and, um, I've chosen to live. I choose to live. I still do and, and hopefully, I really hope that everyone choose so
Josh Lavine 1:26:10
unfortunately, that final clip is the end of the clip, and we don't get to hear the rest of what Moses was going to say, but that final moment, he really got somewhere emotionally. And I just I love the whole arc of that. So if you enjoyed this final reflection from Moses, then please click the like button or hit subscribe. If you're watching on YouTube, or if you're listening to this as a podcast, then you can leave up to a five star review and also leave some comments if you're watching or listening on Spotify or Apple. If you would like to learn more about the Enneagram or type five, then I recommend you check us out at The Enneagram School. You can watch all of our previous interviews organized by typer, instinctual stacking. You can also read about the Enneagram through our free content on the website. And also recommend you check out our intro course. It's a great place to start if you're a beginner, and it's a great place to refresh on the basics. If you're advanced, if you think that you're good candidates to be interviewed on the show, then I would love to hear from you. You can contact me through the contact form of the Enneagram Schools website, and preference very strongly goes to people who have been officially typed by the typing [email protected] enneagrammer is, in my view, the world's most accurate and precise Enneagram typing service. And you can check out their typing services at their website, as well as their members area, where you can watch them type celebrities in real time. Finally, I want to mention that this show is part of a larger group of collaborators. So I want to plug our sister podcast sincesomnia, where the Dream Girls explore the relationship between the unconscious and dreams and the Enneagram, as well as our new podcast house of Enneagram, where all of our creative collaborators meet under one roof in a rotating cast to explore different corners of the Enneagram, as well as to apply the Enneagram as a lens to look at art, pop culture, TV shows, current events and things of that nature. So all the links to all that stuff will be in the show notes. And thank you very much. I'll see you next time you
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