Moses 0:00
Yeah, it's intended to be shocking because, well, it's mostly to keep people who don't deserve to stalk or look at my Instagram to be there in the first place. If you're like, I don't know, wanting a picture of me eating a sandwich at a parking lot, or some I don't know, innocuous picture of me and my friends or sunset. Yeah, no, thank you. You're gonna see a picture of, like, I don't know, a crocodile chewing a zebras legs as it screams, that's your fault for stalking.
Josh Lavine 0:29
Welcome to another episode of what it's like to be you. I'm Josh Lavon, your host, and on this show, I interview accurately typed guests about their experience as their Enneagram type Today, my guest is Moses Williams, who is back for round two. Moses is 18 years old. He's a social self, Pres five, wing six, with 513, tri fix. And after we did the first conversation, Moses emailed me and asked if we could do a second to explore some of the topics that we didn't fully get to go into in the first conversation. In particular, we spent a lot of time talking about Moses's experience and also some theories about being sexual blind, and also his experience being on the autism spectrum, and how that kind of overlaps with, but is also distinct from his being a type five, and also his early childhood obsession with animals and the brutality and violence of the animal kingdom. You could call that, in a way, like a classic five theme, in the sense that even as a young person, he was fascinated by and looking unflinchingly in the face of something that other people would find unnerving or disturbing. And finally, we close on the topic of how powerful and special it can be to find someone who is a collaborator and also a friend, I really, really appreciated this conversation, and I would want to say up front that I really respect Moses for his maturity, for following his intuition that this conversation was important for him to explore the topics that he wanted to explore, to reveal himself in the way that he did, very vulnerably In this conversation, in more than one way. And also, there's something that happens at the end that I don't want to give too many spoilers, but when your heart knows something that's true for you, but that truth is typically suppressed underneath the weight of your normal personality structure. Sometimes, when the conditions are right, that truth can come out, and that's usually a kind of cracking open that's accompanied by tears. And it's a very powerful moment, a kind of coming home to oneself, and a kind of overthrowing of the typical government that rules your inner psychic structure. And something like that happened here. And I just thought it was a really beautiful moment, and I won't say anything else, so that you can experience it in real time. Okay, if you would like to learn more about the Enneagram or about type five, or any other things that we talked about in this episode, then you can go to the Enneagram school.com and check out our content there. I particularly want to recommend our intro course, which is a great place to start if you're a beginner, or a great place to go if you're an advanced student, to get caught up on the basics, the Enneagram school.com, everything is there. And without further ado, I'm very excited for you to learn from Moses. So I'd love to start with this question of you know, this is our this is round two of our conversation, and I sent you the video of our last conversation, and you were hesitant to release it, and then we kind of had an email exchange back and forth, and we decided to do this second round. And I'm wondering about what your what was your response to watching the last one, and yes, what made you say yes to doing around two
Moses 3:35
So to be fair, I watched half of the last one, but Josh, there is nothing. There is nothing worse than hearing your own voice. There just isn't okay. But, and also, a lot of the stuff I I have a really good memory, and I remember a lot of stuff in the conversation. So I managed to get to the main points. So when I watch it like when I when you saw the first when I saw my introduction, I thought, oh my, that sounds like some, that sounds like something, I would put in a, I don't know, some, some inspirational posts or something, and then just leave it. I didn't like it, I think, yeah, like, I mean, it came out of the blue, like it was, like it was really true of me, but it didn't really, I don't think it really tied in really well with what I was intending to go into, or what I was just, like, spewing out, and then kind of like fine tuning and editing it, and it's like, oh, wow, there's a lot more in, like, the middle here, rather than just, you know, what was that the ending?
Josh Lavine 4:55
Yeah, actually, that's interesting, that that clip was that. Clip. Did you feel in a certain way, like your essence was misrepresented in some way by having that clip plucked out of the whole conversation?
Moses 5:12
No, it was, I think it was, I think it was like the clip could have been used elsewhere, like if I wanted to give a pep talk, I'd probably use that one, which, God forbid I could get a pop give a pep talk. But if it was, if it was, yeah, I don't think my essence was really misplaced. Oh, speaking of that one, I think what was also really interesting is that at the last one, when I was talking about that worst time in my life, I think I've framed it more of in a way of like I wanted, I think I was Saying something else that was not completely best describe, best describe two words. Like, I framed it like my worst situation, like, say, um, with the person I was really attracted to who's not there was. I framed it in a way where it's like, I want a relationship. I want to partnership. Um, yeah. And at the time, I think it was me, a lot of this, a lot of this is just mortifying myself, even when I say this. But it was this. It was like, I want what I I want money to sexually want, like I was. I'll clarify more to what, exactly what it is later, um, I want, what I sexually want, and that's it, nothing else. And there's like, no, like, the partnership, the connection was, like, kind of, like a, like, a veil to what was really there? Yeah, like so in a way,
Josh Lavine 7:03
actually, what what's interesting about you're saying is that the frame, the way you framed the story in our last conversation, was itself sexual blind, even though the the the kind of the the instinctive thrust of that whole story was actually that you had a sexual desire for this person, right? Yeah. And, and that was the whole thing. And then, yeah, so, but the even in the tell, in the storytelling, sort of not going there, or, or, I don't know, airbrushing it in a certain way in social speak,
Moses 7:40
yeah, is, as a good doctor said, everything is sex. But yeah, like, that's, that's a major part of the sexual instinct. I think it's that. It's not, it's never about it's like it can weave into a connection based off of certain, like, certain intentions. But the sexual instinct of this core is never about connection. It's never about relationship. It's like, I want what I fucking want, and I don't care how I get it. I It's, it's self me. It's like, it's narcissistic. It's like, you know, like, there's no looking into like, unless, if someone is a master of seduction, the sexual instinct to me, it's like, there's no like, how do I trade for this? For that? There's no borrowing. There's no how exactly would I know that this is going to be fulfilled. There's none of that. It's actually, to me, it's like, it's just straight up, like, I'm gonna get what I want. I don't care what happens afterward. And yeah, like, it might develop something new, it might explode, it might break off, it might formulate to something else. But it's like, I want that thing. I want it.
Josh Lavine 9:01
Yeah, you're, I guess you're speaking to in a certain way, the the dimension of the sexual instinct. That's kind of like a loss of self, like a not just or, I don't know, a way. Sometimes, sometimes people discuss the sexual instinct in the sense of the use the word intensity, but that you can be intense in all three instincts. But the sexual instinct is, like a that sense of being in heat or blinded by your desire or just lustful, you know, in a way that has kind of, sort of not even that deep one dimensionality to it, you know, yeah,
Moses 9:34
yeah. That's, that's the thing that the church like Danes upon, like that completely scapegoats, like, yeah, like, like, whatever the sexual instinct really is about, is what the church sees as sin, or, Oh, that's wrong, or that's bad. And even in some ways, like, even I see, and you know, people who are who don't go to church, people who are incredibly secular, they it seems as if they don't really discuss. It, or at least they kind of weave around it, or just don't talk about it. And I can say so much about like male culture, about like being super like blunt about like, sex, sexual, sex and sexuality. But yeah, there it's still very like, I don't think it really gets smudged into the dimensionality of like, like, it's not like, about like, the me exactly. It's um, it's something else. Like, it's, it really a thumbnail. Like. So why I didn't really experience myself as sexual blind is because I experienced a lot of it internally, and I can recall moments in my childhood where that was, like, a major thing, and a lot of the social instinct was not really attuned at all, or at least very well, like, I kind of saw myself as very socially naive in retrospect, but I didn't. There's a lot of about social that I didn't see, but when it came to, like, actually talking about it, like I experienced sexual as, like, talking about that, that's very, I think, kind of vulnerable, like, it's like stripping away something, or just like, I don't Know, Like talking about is like just being naked upfront in a in a, what, Madison Square Garden or something. It's, it's a lot, yeah, I'm wondering
Josh Lavine 11:35
which direction to go here, because we're already sort of in sexual blind territory. And I think that this is a really, this is one of the things that we wanted to talk about. But also, there's a whole other dimension that I think influences this as well, which is the fact that you're on the spectrum. And so I'll let you choose what feels right to where do you want to go?
Moses 11:57
Oh, boy. Um, I'm gonna find a way to incorporate both. But it's like being on the spectrum. We mean that, like, first of all, like, there's a whole different way of communication and language compared to neurotypical people. And like, say, for example, when hearing things that like I'm I've tried to be a better listener, because it's useful. But when theory things about what neurotypical people say, or what they mean or what they're registering, I do not register very quickly, like or sometimes what neurotypical people say are very muffled to me, or they talk to fats, or they're saying something else, and I'm thinking, Oh, you mean something else, and they're saying and I have to, like, sometimes hear them over and over and over again, because I do not understand exactly what they mean. Like, it's a Yeah,
Josh Lavine 13:06
yeah. Actually, on that note, how do you distinguish between and this could be a whole thing, but how do you distinguish between autism and fiveness? And specifically, what I'm referring to is rejection in the mental Center, where there's this way that fives are already kind of closed off from receiving external guidance, and that's sort of both an unconscious and in some cases, a conscious strategy for fives of just not listening to people and figuring things out on their own, but Also it feels like it's not quite the same as being on the autism spectrum, although there's a right, you know, some of the people in our content universities the word quasi autistic to describe five. So I find this kind of an interesting intersection of of things and how they interplay in you both being a five and also being on the autism spectrum, and how you hold those two as together and separate? Yeah.
Moses 14:07
So I think with being on the autism spectrum, this is how, like, someone's brain work, brains work. And for the five, I think it's just, it's an ego fixation. And I think they are definitely two separate things. I have seen like many people on the spectrum who are really interested in people who are really, really social, and who really want to belong with the crowd, like they, they want, like they, like many of them who are active participants with plenty of people. And to me that I, I could not I, I was thinking like, Why on earth are we doing this? Like, what's the point of this? A whole lot of things like using ABA therapy to, oh, an ABA therapy to help with their uh. Uh, you know, communication and behavior and how they function. Worse, to me, it's like, what the hell was a point of this like and, uh, like, from my experience, I did not like ABA therapy, um, because I thought, what, what is the what is, what is A, B? It's applied behavioral I forgot what that last one was, that last a was, but it's about applied behavioral therapy, basically where it helps new, divergent children basically function in the world, deal with their everyday tasks like
Josh Lavine 15:41
so it's a common therapy for autism, for for people on the spectrum, to be able to interact with people in a more, I don't know, fulfilling or smooth way,
Moses 15:53
yeah, yeah. That's, I think, part of it, and that's also part of it, like what I'm seeing with ABA therapy, is that it was, I had this idea where it had this, um, it was teaching me, oh, this is how you're supposed to adapt, or how you are supposed to socialize, or how are you supposed to like, um, I had a way of, I already had a way where, you Know, I and that came much later, where it's like, I wanted to have people in my life, but like, as a kid, I didn't really like, do me? I have many, many, many periods where I was like, I don't need people. I don't want people. I can just get by by myself. And, yeah, yeah. I think then when I learned about Myers Briggs, which I abandoned, I wait real quick before you go
Josh Lavine 16:52
there the, I guess the key point I'm taking from that exploration of ABA therapy and your kind of resistance to it is that, you know, there are within the subset of people that are on the autism spectrum, there is a variety of personality types, and people have different desires for belonging, you know. And so, like, you could line up, you know, 10 people who have autism and find different personality types within that
Moses 17:21
subset. Oh, no, no, that's, yeah, sorry. Like, within, like, ABA therapy is, like, it's a developmental therapy for people who are on the spectrum, and for Yeah, like, there are, I have never heard of personality types within people who are well spectrum.
Josh Lavine 17:45
Sorry. What I mean is, what I'm saying is, um, is that you being a five and also being on the spectrum, the therapy that you were kind of prescribed for being on the spectrum, you sort of ascertained that the point of that was to socialize better with whatever and with the people in your context. And as a five you've you found yourself basically thinking, what's the point of that? You know, whereas, for example, if you might, if you've been a nine on the spectrum, you might have thought to yourself, oh, actually, there's a point to this. I'd like to connect with these
Moses 18:24
people. Yeah, I would have thought it in a system, yeah. So, um, yeah. Like, like, I totally get like, I understand it. What you mean, like, it's a Okay, yeah. So yeah, like to go back to that long edition, like, when I found my experience, it basically hit me that I wanted people in life, in my life. And was like, Yeah, okay, fine. Like, I want to get out there, make friends. And that was a whole thing. But, but basically, like, being on, like, being on the spectrum, is not necessarily like, like, it's not, not really a personalities like, you know, it's like, you know, people can make a like, I've like, there are people out there who blame whatever they do, like, um, it'd be whatever, like not doing something, not not doing what they need to do, not doing what they want to do, or having a little vision, or bullying other people because of their autism, or otherwise, they're Making a whole personality based off of autistic traits, and that is incredibly not just it's incredibly reductive. It's superficial, and I think it's incredibly lazy to to in the context of who a person is, or what a person is, and why do they do what they do? Like, how? So I think it's very similar to how, like, having ADHD is kind of like, like some people see, it's like, see ADHD as a personality, even though that's that's just how, how their brain functions. And, yeah, I wouldn't say that. I'm, unfortunately, not too knowledgeable on, mostly on these things. But I think based like, based on my understanding that I think like autism spectrum is defined as having traits that are not socially normal, that are usually very obsessive with certain, with certain, I don't want to say things, subjects or certain topics or interests, materials, etc, and yeah, like, it's not, it's not like, a clear cut box. It's not like, like, it's like, it's a literal spectrum where, like, there could be many traits of like, they're so different. And Right, right, autism is actually so relatively new that it like to define it as like a whole personality or whole box. And especially with psychology being new, it's, I think calling it the autism spectrum would be, I think it's pretty, pretty relevant for the times, because it's there's so much of it that we haven't actually found,
Josh Lavine 21:25
yeah, something I find interesting about you is that, you know, when we talk about being on the spectrum, one of the things that comes up or that that's in the common parlance, or part of the diagnosis of being on the spectrum is a lack of facility with social cues, or missing social cues, and you being a social type, and being on the autism spectrum is interesting to me, and how you hold you're still aware of your social context, and are navigating your social context, and you have Social desires and social needs. But that, paired with being on the autism spectrum makes for a really interesting kind of inner tension or dichotomy or something like that.
Moses 22:09
I'd say it's it can Hmm, that's an interesting way to frame it. So I learned a lot of socializing and, of course, a lot of my interest in psychology, like, I think I'm much better at navigating and recognizing my social needs, much better because I had to manually learn psychology. Like I like, it's not like one thing that really surprises me, like you would, that would constantly surprise me, is how people don't seem to need to read anything about, uh, how people work, because they already know, like, they've already got it, like it's in their it's in their system. And, like, what, like, I would say there is, you know, like, like, it is in, like, I think it can be implanted in someone's system. Like, of course, they don't need to read anything. They don't have to, like, I had to manually learn it because, like, a lot of my social keys, like, even though, yes, it's a I don't know what it is. It's like, um, I think it's like imagining a fish wants to fly. But of course, I don't have the tools or anything to do it. I don't have the natural imprints or mechanics to do that. Do such a thing, and it's like, Okay, I'm gonna have to make myself do this, right? Yeah? Like, um, oh, another thing, like, um, like, what I mentioned before about being on a spectrum, and, you know about their obsessive interest, that could, I think that can also be a way to get into some of the sexual blind stuff. Yeah, like, some I did a sexual because, yeah, like, say, for example, like, like those who are, like, there are people who have followed descent who are not interested, not particularly interested, in sex or sexuality, some who are, some who definitely are. And I think to me, like, like, I think that's part of where the obsession, like my sexual interests did come from, yeah,
Josh Lavine 24:45
yeah, yeah. So why don't you take us into that territory of being sexual, blind and maybe a weighted in? Is what happened yesterday?
Moses 24:55
Yeah. So what I thought about yesterday? Day to bring it to this conversation, because I premeditate a lot, so
I will tell you that this is a lot of secrets that I have told absolutely nobody about. But I think this is, this is something I'm 100% prepared for because, well, yeah, so like, as a kid, I was sexually aroused by feet, and it was like, I didn't know what it was. I didn't know what it meant, um, but I knew it was there, like, I knew I got that kind of like, I knew I got that complete arousal. And I was like, I don't, and I, in my mind, was like, Where does that come from? Coming from, and even looking back, it's like, wow, wow. That was a lot. So this is, I'm going to say that this is going to be much worse than the worst story of my life before. So I had a sleepover with some guy I was six or seven, or No, I think was six years old at the time, and we slept on the same bed. Basically we slept in opposite directions. And of course, I noticed his feet were in the left left side of me, and I started touching it, and he told me to stop. And I don't know what my little kid brain thought at the moment, and I'm not gonna frame it as like, Oh, I was a little kid, or I'm just on the spectrum. But it was like, I don't know what it thought, but something in me was saying, keep going. So I kept going. And, um, he told me to stop again. And he complained about and then my mother came into the room and she said, if that happens again, I'm going to separate you two. And at that moment, I was, like, completely frozen. I didn't have an emotional reaction. I didn't have, like, say anything big going on. I don't, I don't remember if I actually did, like, a whole reaction or response or a whole different apology, which, in retrospect, I think that guy definitely, he definitely deserved an apology. But
Josh Lavine 27:42
clarify question, yes, retouching his feet. Are we touching yourself?
Moses 27:47
I was touching his feet. His feet, yeah, yeah, okay, yeah. So, um, at that moment, I was like, I in my mind, my the first thing that came to my mind was like, That cannot happen again. That whole thing, like the idea of getting what I want without other people catching me and getting into trouble for it, I cannot let that happen again. And it was, well, it was probably one of the most mortifying experiences, and I think one of the most painful experiences that has ever happened to me, yeah, yeah. Like, it's, yeah, I was a bad boy. There was a couple of things that I took away from. It was that one, and this is pretty much of a duh moment, where it's like, if someone tells you to stop, stop, I don't know. I think as a kid I I think that was a moment where I actually recognized what like, that other people had boundaries, and other people had like, but the idea that other people weren't going to be interested in what you were interested in, that was, like, a major like, click for me, and that like it, it was more of a part of it, and that much of it didn't come later, until, like, what's it, three years ago now, at that actual worst moment in my
Josh Lavine 29:22
life? Are you saying when you were six or seven, whenever this moment happened, it dawned on that was the moment that it dawned on you, that sometimes what you want is not what other people want.
Moses 29:33
Yeah, actually, it was more of a way where it didn't register me that completely. It was more of like, I'm going to find a way to get what I want, but I'm going to avoid all these obstacles. I'm going to like, I need to double down on strategy and how to how to completely isolate it. Okay, there's
Josh Lavine 29:55
a little bit of competency there in that, in that answer. But. Um, yeah, which I think would be a theme, yeah.
Moses 30:02
It's still going, yeah. And the second part was that I think this is something that's actually coming out recently, uh, well, oh no, no, no, um, oh boy. I think, yeah, there was another thing like, so there's kind of a thing with, I think the reason why I'm so interested in these topics is because I don't, I don't want to end up as completely creepy or weird or like, like, you know, like anybody can think about however they want to think about me, which, but I don't want to end up completely delusional or much worse, because I'm like, say, with, like, say, I Think like, the sexual instinct as kind of, like, kind of like a child's play, like being kind of like having fun, or having, like this, this thing that makes you, like, feel good, like, this thing that makes you feel super high, like, kind of, you know, like getting an arousal is, like, one of The probably, I can't imagine not that being the best thing that ever happened to humans. But, yeah, and you know, like, whatever fantasies, whatever you want to, like, dig in, out of your like, whatever you can't show up up front to the sky, is that that's something that I think everyone wants. And again, to emphasize that the good doctor said everything is sex, but and it's not like, yeah, like, there were kids who were like, their kid, there are like, like, when I was six, seven years old, as a kid, they were, I knew, like, yeah, they were. There were other guys who were totally okay with you know, there were guys who were seemed okay with me touching their feet or something like that. And I think, I'm not sure what I I don't think I could be too accurate of a judger back then, given that it was a long time ago, and I don't know where they are, I haven't seen them in years, but it seems like they really generally enjoyed it and they wanted it, and it's like, okay, yeah, like, that's that may or may not be part of the sexual instinct where it's, like, it's kind of risky to know whether someone is actually interested in what you're interested in, like, Um, yes. Like, you can't, like, it's not like, every day you can't just, like, go up and just, you know, grab a person's you can't just go up and grab a person's voice anymore, that doesn't happen. Like, there's, there's a whole reason why you can't do that and but, yeah, like, it's that that's really rare for, like, one of the rarest things, I think, besides social compatibility, is sexual compatibility, because it's so, it's so diverse. It's so it's so it's so like, even like, with the whole idea of sexuality and how relationships should go in the world today, sexuality is none of that where it's like, you know, it could be any kink. It could be any anything, like, like, pornography, like, whatever you get off to is, like, you're, it's, yeah, it's the most thing that you get mortified about, because it's actually true for true of you. And that's, that's a major part of it,
Josh Lavine 33:59
yeah, yeah. There's something so profound in this, in the vulnerability you're describing, where you reveal your kinks or desires or whatever they may be. You know that act of revealing is a, is a certain kind of coming out. It's a it's an opening, a door into yourself for other people to see. And it's also a bid for connection that can be rejected, you know, right? You know, someone can say, I don't like that, or you're weird, or whatever they say. And then that is, you know, ouch,
Moses 34:33
yeah, I don't get people who like shorter blonde women, but, yeah, that's, um, I think to be like, truly admitting, to truly admit your sexual desires. It's, uh, well, first of all, it's not gonna be for everyone. Like, what's the point of just admitting it to just straight up everyone? Um, but because, like, well, you're not gonna have. Everyone in your life, you're not gonna like nobody's it's not, it doesn't have to be for the world to see. But if that's something that you want to do, that's for whatever reason, that requires a lot amount of a lot of bravery and vulnerability. And, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think going on to a lot of the child's play, it's that there's some I've seen with, like, say, with Intel culture, where, nowadays this, like, a lot of Intel culture is basically, it's men who kind of stay, kind of stay boys, because, like, and they could be like, maybe from their past experience, maybe it was terrible, or maybe they never had any experiences. Maybe they're shy, socially awkward, etc, but a lot of what they what they see about like, objectifying people, having very which leads into like if like with one objectifies a person way too much that can be incredibly delusional and incredibly unrealistic, to the point where all they see is meat that they want to taste. And it's also like, you know, like, still with like that it's containing that sexual instinct. And, like, honestly, I do not know how a mature or a developmental version of each instinct works entirely, but there's something rather degenerative about like, a very, very, very unhealthy sexual instinct where it's like, not just left in this container, but this container is what people only see. And you know, they never like, they don't give it airtime, they don't give it experience. You don't offer it. They don't like, they like even if you know someone reject, sexually rejected someone multiple times, it's still, you know, maintaining a realistic outlook on, you know, what you're finding and who will be there.
Josh Lavine 37:12
Yeah, you know, you're bringing up this like this. So the idea of an INCEL, I think it's a powerful image, and I love your characterization of it in terms of, it's like a person who stayed a boy, this, this idea of not being able to expose your or, yeah, I don't know, find compatibility with your sexual desires. Or it's almost like, or how to my sense of, my sense of the INCEL psychology, is that it's a sexual desire that never found a healthy expression. And so there's an incredible amount of resentment that gets built up around that, like the world doesn't want accept this, women won't accept this. And so rather than finding a way to healthily express myself or to display myself in a way that's actually attractive, or that is, you know what? Rather than going about that project of becoming a mature, sexually healthy man, I just kind of collapse into myself and take on a project of being resentful and angry towards the people who've rejected me, especially sort of the women I find attractive and so yeah, and
Moses 38:21
yeah, that's really good. That's really good, really good. I completely forgot about that, but that was that was really, really good, because I'm like, with, Oh, my like, it's kind of funny to me how, like people who do like pornography or only fans, actually stay upkeep their attract, attraction and their healthiness. Whereas with the people who don't seem like very ugly, or they're like old or like completely like, they don't even try, it's like, and also with, I think it's also a lot of it is kind of like the it's very anti, like, for the heterosexual incels out there, it's also like anti feminist, feminist where it's not just objectifying, it's incredibly misogynistic. It's reductive, it's toxic. And it's not like men don't take responsibility for themselves, and they blame women for their problems, for rejecting them. Yes, which part I would say, part of it, yeah, like, I would say, I would say it's both, like, feminism, like, like, what I've heard with like, some like, Camille Paglia, like a lemon, are blaming men for their problems, for keeping them weak, which I think it's actually both of their problems. Like, um, it's not like a relationship, a compatibility, like a bringing something together is never about it's not it's not one side. It where it's like, it's your fault, or it's 100% my fault, it's both of your fault, like it's one it's like, the relationship that you're probably looking for is not it, or it's not completed, or it's not fulfilled, and because the world is not gonna just straight up giving giving it to you, and it's hard to find anything nowadays, especially in this, you know, tough, highly expensive, Trump, terrorist, capitalistic world, it's, it's really hard to like, find, like genuine, a genuine person, like a genuine relationship, or someone who Generally wants to get into what you're sexually into, and because of that, like people start blaming the world for their problems. And part of it, I think it is the world. Part of it is like, you know, part of it is women, part of it is men, and it's also within themselves that they're not, they're not taking responsibility for finding or searching, or, you know, just keep trying. And it's a lot, and a lot of it speaks on hope, which, I think that's just the very reality of, you know, being healthy. It's that belief that, you know, like it's that it's not really belief. It's more of like an acceptance that it may happen, it may not happen, but being the best self, being the true self, and let me know how you want to live this 100% important instead of that kind of like seventh house, everything like, I'm going to be defined by um whoever's out there, or I'm going to um be defined by my partner, or by this person, or by this person that allows me to do this, or this person who doesn't allow me to do this, and etc. It's all. Everything is within itself. So there's
Josh Lavine 41:59
something sort of valiant about this project of taking responsibility for myself. And maybe the right words are something like to keep trying. You know, like I put myself out there. I see, I expose myself, I put a bid out for connection, like, Hey, do you like this? I learned how to respect other people's boundaries when they say no, but I keep trying. That sense of keep trying something about that that feels like kind of heroic or Yeah, and I guess I'm wondering, sort of back to you, how that has worked for you. You know, from this moment when you were six, seven, and then the message you internalized, and then how you've kind of started to try to process and work on this kind of thing.
Moses 42:44
Um, I did not immediately wait what message, what? Which one like the one I just told or the one that,
Josh Lavine 42:53
well, I guess actually, what I'm wondering is, is, what came up for me, as you were talking about that moment when you were six seven, and then the the kind of devastating realization that and the and the feeling of rejection of this is not what whatever's in me is not okay with some people, and sometimes it's not okay with the very people that I want it to be okay with, and just the vulnerability of putting yourself out there sexually towards a person that you want to be sexually in connection with, connection with, and them not basically saying no, and and then this kind of competence reaction of Wait, let me figure this out. And I'm wondering if, in addition to the social connection and desire for meaningful social relationships that you have as a social type, if you're just if your drive to learn psychology also came from this other place, this kind of sexual place.
Moses 43:49
Yes, there you go. Yes, it did. Yeah. I suppose I think when learning psychology is like, I didn't want to be, I don't want to be celibate my whole life. I don't, yeah, totally, yeah. Like, like, Yeah, honestly, like, yeah. Like, who doesn't? But um, like to learn psychology is like, wow. Like, that's, that's a whole different world for me. Um, yeah, um, I think that's, I think that's all I can say here about that. Okay, okay, yeah.
Josh Lavine 44:28
Just one other point of commentary on that is that there's actually kind of a way that I relate to what you're saying in the way, in the sense of, like, Okay, I'm sexual blind. I don't want to be celibate. Let me go figure this out. Let me take a competence approach to this. Let me study like you know, what girls respond to and how to be a more attractive person myself, and this is obviously coming from a three competence point of view myself, but yeah, there's something also about studying psychology that. Feels like a social way to approach this sexual problem, you know, like, let me understand the inner world of people. Let me look at frameworks like the Enneagram or Myers Briggs as a way in to understanding this that feels I don't know, just has a social feel to me. Does that feel right to you,
Moses 45:22
yeah, I so I think, with, like, a lot of I think what really hides the underbelly is that social veil, and a lot of that social game, and a lot of the social rules and, yeah, like, nobody wants to just emit what they want. Nobody just tells people what tells people what they want. But I think that's kind of part of the nature of sexuality in itself, where, like, a sexually like, say, like, the part the the interesting part of the real interesting part about sexuality is the mystery of it, like you don't even know about what's there. Like you get, like, you know, didn't get like a bullet, or maybe like a cleavage or something very interesting like or maybe like a hit of skin that like letting the imagination feel it is part of that mystery about sexuality. And yeah, that's kind of why sexual blinds are, that might be a good reason why sexual blinds are evolutionarily the most common, because, you know, like the nature of sexuality is to hide and to weave in and weave out. Nobody's supposed to know it, like there will be people who will just outright repress it. But it's also this game where people try to lift it up. And I think that's just inevitable, like life is always going to be, you know, a game of conflict, especially with with sexual depression and sexual liberation. And if I had to, I suppose if I, I'd probably be on the side of sexual liberation. Yeah, within, within the battle. Okay,
Josh Lavine 47:03
I have a new topic for you. So in the last conversation we talked, we kind of glossed over your childhood fascination with animals, and you mentioned in your email that you wanted to kind of explore that a little bit more, and I would love to as well. I think it's a really interesting because it sounds like you were kind of obsessed with animals. With animals, and it was literally everything you read about and thought about when you were really young. And so, yes, I wonder what words you have for it, and what, looking back, what that was all about for you.
Moses 47:37
Yeah. So, um, I cannot imagine a time where I never thought about animals, directly or indirectly. It's, it's kind of like how we think about the Enneagram. I always find, I always find ways to like, type people or like. I'm always figuring things out. See other people's like, they're like, this is how this works. The humans work and whatnot. But, like, the thing fascinating about animals is that, I think it's like, I think to me, it read as as a rather visual part, like, this is the very natural part of human nature. Like, like, of course, animals are like, human species are human beings are the most evolved animal species. But there's something incredibly free with with these creatures, and something very violent, like these are like, there are no laws, there are no rules within the jungle, like the law is to have absolutely no laws, just beta fit to survive. And I think a lot of it still happened today, except nobody likes to straight up admit that they're violent. Nobody wants to tell anyone straight up that, you know, I'm gonna fuck you over or I'm gonna do this thing. Like, that's kind of the part of planning is that nobody's supposed to know what you're supposed to do. But with animals, it's that it's more straight up. It's like, just like being a beast in a forest. It's like, you know, it's absolutely nothing. And, oh, I think what I meant to talk about in the last episode about serpents is that serpents have an incredible they are really present in mythology. And it's many stories and many because like represent like, they represent wisdom, they represent intelligence. But also you can't tell if they're an enemy or if they're a friend. To you, you can't tell what it is. I think that's what they represent. And also it's like a cold blooded creature. Um. And it's like, like, I want what I want, and there's no way I'm gonna, like, let anything stop me. And it's incredibly fun. And there, there are venomous snakes or non venomous snakes, but there are, yeah, I think what they I think what they fascinate me about, about them is that they are quite cold, scary creatures, but and I am terrified of them, and I am somewhat of an enemy of them, but I also want to, I know there's something about them very fascinated by
Josh Lavine 50:42
the the the brutality and violence of the animal kingdom and the jungle, is that something that you were, like, very aware of, and is that what drew you to animals when you were younger?
Moses 50:53
Oh, that, that's a major part of it. Yes, yeah. I so, like, how old are we talking about something else? But probably six or seven at the time. Yeah, that was the start. Um, yeah. I was very aware of I was very aware of death. I was very aware that my life is I was very aware that my life is going to end somehow. Um, and I conceptualize about heaven and hell, but I was kind of, like pointing some of the holes in it where it's, like, does it really last forever? Like, what? What actually happens in heaven and what actually happens in hell? Like, this is, like, this stuff, this thing that happens over and over and over again. Like, that sounds terrible. Yeah, it's, it's not part of it. This sounds terrible, but it's also, um, like, a lot of like, like, how this described as a, what an actual suffering it's and I, I wish I read The Divine Comedy much more. I wish I have it now, because I read in front of do not remember much of it, but a lot of it has to do with, you know, these are sufferings. These are things that you pay for, for falling back into the same habit you
Josh Lavine 52:11
mentioned last time that there were you would bring animal facts to the dinner table and oh yes, your parents or siblings would be like, stop talking about that, or they would be often disturbing facts. Or, like, do you have an example of of the kind like, like, a story about that, or the kinds of things that you would bring?
Moses 52:31
Yeah, um, usually it's um, that I don't have anything else. I hardly have anything else to talk about. But I think, um, oh, my, I think it was something about Oh, something about what bugs do. I can't read exactly what I'm what I remember saying, but I remember my sister or my mother saying, it's not really appropriate. It's like, it's not really much big deal. Like, um, like, if I'm gonna be really honest with you, I haven't really told much stories about it at all. Like, I like, that was usually the only thing I could talk about. And I think they were fine with it in some cases. But when they get older, it's like, and we don't what's the point of it? What are we doing here? And that was just really confusing to me. It's like, well, what are we like? What are we getting so worked up for?
Josh Lavine 53:31
I'm fast, so it was literally the only thing you could talk about,
Moses 53:34
yeah, at like, as a kid, yes, they cannot. Oh, my goodness, I can't remember anything else.
Josh Lavine 53:46
Were there phases? Did you go through, like, were you obsessed with, like, specific animals at certain points?
Moses 53:53
Yes, i i actually my favorite animal is the tiger, partially because it's like its skin is my favorite color, but also because it's the largest cat in the animal kingdom, and it's very highly independent, very self sufficient. It's a very self sufficient beast and one of the most fascinating, oh, what most fascinating ecosystems of the world? The usually the jungles of Asia, Indonesia, or what Siberia, which? Yeah, when people think of the jungle, they think of somewhere in Africa, or they think of nature, they think of the Savannah, lions, oxen, Apollo, zebras, or the Amazon. And I think Asia is really, really, really underrated, but it's also really diverse and quite colorful and endangered species. But also, yeah, I think there's something about it that's really. Be really beautiful, if that's any better. And I still am like, I don't have have it as a larger session as it is today, but I post a lot of Instagram stories about hyenas ripping out an animal's intestines almost all the time. So, okay, yeah, it's there. So, yeah, it's still there. And I still think it's a really, I think it's still as a symbol, really, I read, like, my interest in animals as a very huge symbol for me as the part of us. And it's really, really really beastial. And,
Josh Lavine 55:42
yeah, yeah,
Moses 55:45
Bill, some very are you,
Josh Lavine 55:48
in terms of like, you posting that stuff on Instagram? Are you attempting to be shocking, or are you just, you're not okay? Are you're just putting it out there, just because it's interesting to you. What do you? What do you, yes, yeah. What's the meaning of it for Well, I guess let's say it differently. What's the social message of it? Is there one?
Moses 56:11
I think the most of it is that, like, yeah, it is, I think I don't know. It's more of like, this stuff is interesting to me. It's also, well, I guess you could say that, yeah, it's intended to be shocking because, well, it's mostly to keep people who don't deserve to stalk or look at my Instagram to be there in the first place. So yeah, like, if you're like, I don't know, wanting a picture of me eating a sandwich at a parking lot or some I don't know, a knockouts picture of me and my friends are sunset. Yeah? No, thank you. You're gonna see a picture of, like, I don't know, a crocodile chewing a zebras legs as it screams, Don that's your fault for talking.
Josh Lavine 57:00
Yeah? Yeah, okay.
Moses 57:02
But part of it, part of the other reason, is that like, I don't like it's just, I guess it's just a part of me that I don't know why it's there, but it's I like it, and I just put it there. And I think to anyone who sees this, and anybody who really sticks with it, it's like, I think in a way, it's like, also like it, it is intending to be like, shocking, because it's like, well, I'm gonna make you like, remember me. But are you still interested in this avatar? Do you want this? Like, do you want to like, is there anything interesting that you want to do? Like, if you are still interested, and I still post it, so it's like, that means, and if you're still interested, then that means a lot, you know, like, I'm not like, I refuse to just like, you know, hide. This is like, Okay, I'm just gonna bring like, like, if, like, if anyone is interested in like, you know, knowing me, it's like, Well, okay, I'm gonna tell you like you're not gonna be prepared for that. It is, it is it is, like, sort of hexa
Josh Lavine 58:09
hex, add what you're saying in the sense that it's like displaying the most, the edgiest part of you upfront as almost like a filtration mechanism, or just like, hey, this is what it's going to be. You know, if you want to get close to me, this is what it is, versus the attachment of like, you know, attachment types may be fascinating with that too, but they wouldn't typically lead with
Moses 58:32
that. Yeah, it's not like, I'm trying to be like, Oh, I'm edgy, I'm cool, or I'm like, Yeah, awesome, or whatever. It's because, well, first of all, I am. And a lot of it is, it's, it's a lot of that kind of shock is like, yeah, like, this is, you know, it's gaging. How interested are you really, right?
Josh Lavine 58:54
What else is here in terms of content about yourself that you'd like to explore and aspects of five or aspects of sexual blind, or aspects of autism, aspects of being triple competency.
Moses 59:12
Yeah, I can say that a lot of like the way I work with people is usually very damaged and debilitated, because I don't like, I don't like working with people at all, or at least with mostly like, my default option is that I work alone, and the idea that anybody could work with me is a little odd to me, and just, I don't know, like, I see it's like, why on earth would anybody be interested in in it? Or otherwise, what on earth could they do with me? Like, what's the point? Because I've already got this thing, I already have a plan. I would have a vision, and with other people bringing something to the table, it's like, well, I don't need that, or they're not going to be following whatever I'm going to do. So instead of complaining about that, I usually just do things alone. Yeah. Yeah, a lot of that. A lot of the strange things about competency is that you'd like, you have to, like, remove a lot and yeah, like, there's, like, I don't know, like, there, let me try again. Is. So the thing about like, competency is like, what is the best? What is what will really complete it? And it's really hard to like see other people's contributions. Like, well, another person's contribution can be for something else, but it's definitely not for me or for what I want?
Josh Lavine 1:01:03
Yeah, there's a judgment and competency in the sense that I guess, what I hear you saying is that for someone to collaborate with you, they would have to meet a certain standard or bar that you've set, but it's also very particular to you, and I'm trying to find my way into what you're saying as myself as a competency type, because I also experience a both a judgment for kind of bad competence and a massive respect for high competence. You know, when someone, when someone's really excellent at something, it just lights me up. I'm just like, yes, like, like, this person's honoring themselves, honoring the craft, honoring their art form, whatever they're doing, they're doing in a competent way. It just like, it just fills me up with this, with a like, a resonant joy, like, yes. And what's interesting, I guess, you being triple hexad, I'm sorry, triple competence, and hexade, and, yeah, double hack said there's, there's like, a heightened level of prickliness to the competency that you're describing.
Moses 1:02:13
Yeah, it's, yeah, it's super not, like, it's not part it's not assuming, it's not assuming that it's taking a position of, like, closed offness, like, there's like, if you want me, you're gonna have to work hard for it, or you have to be extremely Lucky, but you have to, like, prove to me, like, can you, like, are you really meaning up to my standards? Like, like, sometimes I can even, like, even with like, even with like, some say, school teachers, which I don't care that much about school like, not like, I care much about the school teacher, because I usually do everything by myself, but um, I would usually respect a school teacher more for their competency, rather than competency, and how, you know how informed they are, and how well I think, and how, how good they are, rather than their personality or Their um, how other people feel about them? Like, that's not like other people tend to emphasize a relationship with the teacher, which, um, to me is like, um, I don't get it because, uh, I'm thinking, well, this is the point of the teacher to teach to, you know, to show something, to talk about, to talk about something, but the relationship is like, like, you know, if you want a relationship with a teacher, then that's like, outside of the classroom, or that's secondary, or that's something else. And to me, it's like, I like, I've just not seen that. I don't really see the point of it. If it's like, in the way of my goal. And recently, I kind of have found that I don't know like the idea of relationship with a teacher would be nice. It's at that damn social instinct where it's like, yeah, that like, what is it like to know that teacher is like, Huh? Like, who is that person, personally and but that's
Josh Lavine 1:04:25
as distinct from the thing they're teaching you or the content that's coming out of the that's, I guess I'm also hearing partly, like, the some rejection in what you're saying. Like, there's a way, like a fractional relationship you have with a teacher who is offering you their expertise, and you're ingesting it, and that's sort of the those are the parameters of the relationship, but they're sort of wholeness as a person gets kind of cut out or obscured or or something like that,
Moses 1:04:56
yeah, like it's it's not a relationship. It's more of like they. They do something, I hear something, like, there's no, like, there's nothing between us except transactional, yeah, yeah, like we're just one sided, where it's like, I see something, and you do your thing, I do my thing. That's it. I think one of the most, like, one of the things that actually make me super nervous is that when, like, I think one time I was actually very nervous, is that when a teacher from last year asked me about, asked me who I how I was, and what are you doing for the weekend, I was, like, frozen and whatnot. Because, yeah, I think to open a relationship with someone that's very risky, especially if someone does it first, or someone acts in it first, or just like, Wait, let me figure this out.
Josh Lavine 1:05:52
Yeah, well, there's a lot. I mean, there's, there's five in what you're saying. There's probably some Autism Spectrum stuff in what you're saying. There's also the social of what you're saying is the awareness of how this teacher is perceived in the social context. And what does it mean to open up yourself to a relationship with this person who has that perception associated with her? And then there's just the jarring nature of like a social outreach, like a certain kind of contact that's beyond the parameters of the relationship you have as teacher students already, this is a little bit of a stretch, but it's but actually it is kind of a reverse parallel of the of the sexual bid that you had, right? It's like it is. It's a vulnerable thing to make that outreach, you know,
Moses 1:06:39
yeah, and fun of me the love I did, like, even though I respected her as a teacher, I did like her, I found her very fascinating. Like, I want to know this person. There's like a secret to me that wanted to know this person, but I never did. But yeah, as far as like, when people ask me those like, like, it's not like, if anybody, like, you know I can't like, not anybody's just gonna just straight up ask me that, um, but if, like, I know a total stranger, just ask me how your day was. Or you hope, I hope you have a good day. I'm like, What? What the what do you what are you talking about? And it's so funny to me. Like, generally, it's like, what is like, what are you talking to me for? Like, who are you?
Josh Lavine 1:07:28
Know, I get it. I get it. I mean, I do get it. I sort of hate that stupid, whatever social the bromides that we throw out for each other. Yeah. Um, I have one of the topics that I want to explore with you, actually, you go, No, you go, you go,
Moses 1:07:49
um, like, one question that I'm I'm starting like, like, first of all, I do notice that, um, like, there are definitely some like, very smooth competency themes with your interview style. Like, um, like, even when you're like, Oh, let me, let me try again for the question. Like, I know that it's going to be edited. I know that it's going to be fixed. And, like, the timing is just so perfect. I'm like, Jesus Christ, wow. Like, you've planned this out, um, but also, I think one thing that I wanted to like you mentioned something about how you respect competency and how you respect how you respect someone doing a good job, and you're like, Yes, yes, yes. So how do you experience collaboration?
Josh Lavine 1:08:44
Oh, wow. What a beautiful question. Let's see, how do I experience collaboration? That's a really interesting question for me right now. Think about that. Let me say it's, it's actually, it's hard. Collaboration is hard because, let's see, I do have really high standards for my work, especially as a three I would say it's really important to me that the work that I produce be, be of, be excellent, and there are ways that I don't actually realize, as a especially as a triple attachment type, how particular my standards are. It's almost like I assume, because I'm triple attachment, that other people have the same standards. And so the what's what's been unusual or strange for me in the last few years is to basically see how to collaborate with people. Is it's, it's been, let me put it this way, actually, it's been a I've had to discover my own standards and then be willing to, let's see. Assert them and to communicate them, and to have people sort of opt into them, and if basically to realize that I have a bar myself that I want to hold other people to in terms of collaboration. So it's actually quite the opposite approach of how you're describing it, where for you, like as a young person, you're 18 and you have this way of you're already understanding your standards as a double hexad type, you know, and you don't like to collaborate with people, because you sort of are already leading with that sense of hyper specific individuality. Marie's a triple attachment type, even though I'm a competence type, it's like I've had to grow into this sense of what my standards actually are, and then be willing to actually have them on the table and to matter and to determine whether or not I want to continue collaborating with someone if they're going to opt into my standards or not. And so the kind of collaborative relationships that I have now, like, like, for example, you know, I work with Kristen to help edit these interviews, and she's been amazing, but that's because our communication has been strong. And, you know, she'll make a draft, and if I have edits, I'll be like, Hey, let's, let's talk this out. And then we kind of sync up, so we have a shared mind about what the values are that we're trying to uphold, or what the what the standard is. And then once we have that shared mind, then it's pretty smooth sailing, but it's, it's been a journey for me, yeah, and I appreciate the question, why'd you ask?
Moses 1:11:26
Yeah, like, collaboration is, um, I think collaboration is really special. Like, it's, um, a large part of it's, like, I don't think any, like, really working or really true, really good collaborations, actually, just, you know, happen with everybody? And I do, I do generally believe that other people do have an immense amount of potential, but they usually just don't pull their own weight, or they don't have like, like, say, for example, like, when hearing a people, like a teacher, talk about something, it's like they're usually complaining about, like, this is so hard, or some other thing that has, like, nothing to do with what they're learning. But a lot of is, like, incredible, like, I think what like, like, even, what collaboration would teach me, like, even, like, with some like, with a few friends that I have, I haven't taught I I've been teaching myself a lot of patience, because I have an idea of where I want to go, and it like, sometimes it does not go that way. And like, even though, like, Yes, I'm still interested in this person, I still want to see what, what is this person? But like, some of the like I know, one person you know, like, by my experience, they talk really, really slowly, but they have different like, and I won't put too much because I won't put too much in here for privacy reasons, but they have, they currently have a lot of some, some mental issues, and, like, a lot of personal issues within them, and just with how their brain works and and how They are like because of that, they tend to be really tired a lot. And, like, sometimes, like, they talk really slowly. Like, you have to, like, if you want to hear the whole thing, you have to wait, like, um, like, it's not like, you can't just expect a quick answer. Like, you can't just pressure this person. You have to, like, completely just settle and be with the sort of moment. And I think part of that kind of patience is like, Am I like? And part of me is like, why am I still yearning for this? I don't know. Like, it's I'm just drawn to it. I guess
Josh Lavine 1:14:18
that's amazing. I relate to that too. Just being drawn to it, like, collaboration is really special. It's like, it's a really cool thing when you have two people pouring their life force in the same direction, you know, towards the same thing, and then something gets birthed between you, and then that, just to me, that's a really cool thing. I'm sort of, I'm, like, amazed by and fascinated by collaboration and teamwork, and in actually studied it like, I'm an executive coach. I work with teams sometimes, but I found it, it's like, in terms of my own personal relationship with it, it's, I've had a lot of lessons to learn there, but, but just to your point, like it's, it's something that I do crave and find myself drawn to. Well. Do you find yourself drawn to it?
Moses 1:15:06
Like to like you mean to collaboration or to this person?
Josh Lavine 1:15:09
Yeah, yeah. Well, I guess collaboration with that, with that person, yeah,
Moses 1:15:16
um, was my collaboration. It's more of a it is more of a connection. It's a friendship, um, I, I don't know, like it's, it's kind of like asking um. It's kind of like asking, why on earth did someone become an artist, or did some Why did, why did you marry your wife? Or, you know that it's like, I was just, I don't know, like I, I think I wanted to actually take a chance to try something I wanted. I wanted. I suppose it's just trying out in a relational, relational experience, which I did not have a long like, for a long time, not for a long time at all. But And funny enough, being a high school senior i And actually, I was a transfer student last year, and I saw that everyone was like dating or having all these friendships and they, I think most of the reason why was like they had it was because I don't like they've been around them for long enough, or they managed to just find a very few people and stick with them. And I have, like, I don't know whether where they're gonna go in, like, 1020 years. Like, some are probably never gonna see these people again. Some are going to regularly keep up with them and whatnot. And to meet with this person, I just wanted to try it out. I think it was like, I think having that experience actually does teach me something. And
like, I can't live in a in a whole idea of somebody, or a whole idea of how this will go, like to, like to actually do something about it is super important, and I think it's really, really necessary. Yeah, because without, I think it's really just living that's a lot.
Josh Lavine 1:18:10
Yeah, it's okay, yes,
Unknown Speaker 1:18:16
yeah, what came up?
Josh Lavine 1:18:18
Take your time. I in
Moses 1:18:33
front of past five minutes. I think when I asked you that question and when you answered, I felt like my chest and my heart just like, just bursting, yeah, like it was, um, I think it teetered on the edge of being uncomfortable, but I think it's like something just opening, like something new, yeah? Like, I know that I'm going to relapse into the same old shitty me two hours ago, but it's like something I don't know it was like something social. Just like, happened. Like, yeah, wow. Like, just, it just burst open. Yeah, yeah, I don't think I've actually really cried in a long time. It's a
God like it's i
Yeah, yeah, a lot of that. Like, I noticed, like in the last interview, I talked really, really fast. I I think it was just me try, like these moments I was trying to, like, catch. It so it's like, wait, I need to stop and like, I actually need to, like, sense myself. I need to settle myself right, like, right here, yeah and, yeah, like, yeah, like, I don't even know like, this is going to be like, like, do I think that a relationship with this person is a meaningful connection? I don't know? Like, maybe this person has other priorities. Maybe it's this person that's under interests other meaningful people that are which I have a secret issue with, like, with jealousy, where, yeah, this person might be more interested in other people than me, but to me, like, I think it's just something that just came up, and it's like, you just Yeah, and I tried figuring out, like, why on earth do I feel that way? What? What is this? What is going on like this? Does not make any sense. Like this. There's other things, like a rationalized by but it's there. And I'm like, yeah, just come out.
Josh Lavine 1:21:13
Can I just ask you to just be with that for a second? And just, I'm curious if that just that thing that was happening in your body or your heart, if that has words, what is or if it had words, What would it be saying? It
Moses 1:21:34
feels somewhat relief. I um, I think they're there. I think there's a myriad of things that I haven't really known about, or a myriad of things that it hasn't really burst out into, but I think it's giving like a sigh of relief, like finally, it's just out there to breathe, out there to be rather than scrutinized.
Josh Lavine 1:22:12
And what's the um thing about how, right? What's the relief? What was, what was, what has been unburdened?
Moses 1:22:22
Um? A lot of that irrational, emotional kind of that secret positive hope in myself, uh huh, yeah, okay, yeah, I don't see myself as really hopeful and like I like, if I'm very measured and very careful about how to approach relationships like even, well, actually, funnily enough, how that started. The person was like, like, I asked a person, like, first time when I saw him, when he saw him, I was like, what are you what are you holding? And he showed me Crime and Punishment. And I was like, whoa. And I was super interested in it. Like, this is an intellectual and when he left, I was like, Oh, I'm not gonna see this person again. Oh, well, this is gonna happen. Then the next day, the person he was with told me that he wanted my number. What? Like, are you serious? Like, I did not expect that. And it was like, Okay, well, let's see what that goes and I need to see this person again. And I'm like, I'm not just gonna, like, give this person my number at all, until I saw him the second time. And when I saw him the second time, like, at the at that moment, I was like, wow, yeah, I need to keep this. This needs to happen. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I don't know about like, like, people are really secretive. Like, who knows if they're that's all I'm gonna say about that person for privacy reasons. But yeah, yeah, I really don't know. Like, you know, like, even at that moment in high school where some people really want meaningful, General, genuine connections, or otherwise they're just, you know, wanting to kill time. And these people just happen to be so, but, um, I think I wanted to step out of that and actually like, shows, so something that people wanted but never could get to. And I'm like, Okay, I'm gonna do this. Yeah, and it's, it's just to have that experience. And maybe it's, maybe it's better. Maybe. It's worse, but depending on the person. But, yeah, it's something it's it's something to radically change into.
Josh Lavine 1:25:09
I think what I'm understanding is that there's a way that you unconsciously live in a place of cynicism about the possibility of a fulfilling kind of relationship, like the one you have this person and that hope, it's like, it's, it's like, way suppressed down you to the point that it like never, really advocates any airtime, because it feels, even in your words, irrational, and then sort of all of a sudden, here is this relationship that is happening, and it's like that hope all of a sudden, can have some room to breathe, and it produces This emotional release that you just experienced.
Moses 1:25:58
Yeah, like Yeah. I think some of it was underneath, like, a whole strategy. Like, I need to figure this out. Like, if I want, if I want this, then I gotta, I gotta find a way to get it instead of just, like, just do it. Like, I can't just go into this person to say how your day was. I'm like, No,
Josh Lavine 1:26:21
that's the competence thing. And actually, I relate to what you're saying. I relate to that from a competence point of view. It's like competence is a is a way to get something. But there's actually a funny self defeating way that the competence can obscure or prevent you from get it's like it can get you close, but it can actually get you there. You know, at a certain point the competence project has to the competence way of approaching it has to dissolve, so that you can actually be in contact from the place in you that isn't competent, or something like that.
Moses 1:26:52
Yeah. Like, competency is really just a way to, like, in this context, like, competency in a relationship is a way to be competent in something that is generally incompetent,
Josh Lavine 1:27:04
yeah, yeah,
Moses 1:27:07
yeah. I think that's that's probably only to think about as of now, okay, okay, okay,
Josh Lavine 1:27:20
yeah, well, yeah, that was kind of an amazing moment, actually, just to have that happen here, anything else in terms of how you're feeling now that would be that you want to say,
Moses 1:27:35
I guess I could say I'm a little stiff, but I guess I think I'm in this place where it's like, what can I do now? Oh, when I wanted to think I'm like, I yeah, like, I cannot go into relationship without the possibility that this is going to be over, yeah. Like, even, like, even think about right now. Like, yeah, this could be like, I don't know this very person that I'm talking about could probably watch this interview or not watch this interview and be done with the total connection and cut me off. But that's, um, that's something I'm prepared for, because that's, I suppose that's the other parts of life where, like as much as I would love to control it, that's something I cannot coerce, or something I cannot control. That's something I have to accept. That's life
Josh Lavine 1:28:34
that actually feels to me like the virtue of the five which the you know, the word for it is non attachment. It's the sense of, it's like it's, let's see how to put this. The non attachment gets collapsed into a kind of cynicism that prevents action, that collapses into avarice, which is a withholding of the self, but with non attachment, we kind of realize the ephemerality of things, but that allows us to be actually more in contact with the world, with our relationships, even while we carry the awareness of things exist In Time and everything will die eventually.
Moses 1:29:21
Yeah, like this a thing that you will not know, but thing that you will definitely prepare for, or think that people just yeah, that will happen, even though you can't really take care of it. That's something to that's something to just deal with. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Josh Lavine 1:29:41
That's really good. Okay. Yeah, this was really good, really good. I'm really glad we did this. I'll leave a little space if there's anything else that you want to say. Sort
Moses 1:29:53
of in closing, how are you feeling? I don't know. Like, I know that. Like. I don't like to be like, the whole like, power manipulator, where it's like, like, how are you doing, and it's all about you instead of me, but I don't know, like, I have to say, like, You're an excellent interviewer. And I'd say, Really, thank you so much for allowing me on here. I think, like, how was your like, how was your experience
Josh Lavine 1:30:32
with this? Thanks for saying that. And I just have to say it's like, game sees game. There's, you know, two competency types, kind of acknowledging each other. And yeah, my experience of this has been, this has been actually quite amazing. I just hadn't there's no there's no way that we could have predicted that that moment would have just happened. And in that context, and I find myself sort of in awe of something like a mystery. I don't, I don't know how, I don't know that I have words for it. It's I feel, I feel this conversation was really beautiful. And I just want to say thank you for, yeah, showing up for it. And it's really been a genuine pleasure to have you here and to do this with you. So thanks for being so
Moses 1:31:23
open. Thank you. Thank
Josh Lavine 1:31:24
you for tuning in to my conversation with Moses. If you liked this conversation, then please click the like button or hit subscribe if you're watching on YouTube or if you're listening to this as a podcast, then you can leave up to a five star review, and you can also leave a comment if you're listening on Apple or Spotify. Those are free and very effective ways of supporting me and the show and the work that we do at The Enneagram School. And if you would like to learn more about the Enneagram or what we do at The Enneagram School, then I recommend you come check us out on our website, the enneagramschool.com, when you go there, you can read all about the Enneagram. We have free basic intro content, and also we have a list of all of our past interviews that you can browse by Engram type and instinctual stacking. And we also have an intro course. I want to plug our intro courses, I think the best place on the internet to go to learn the Enneagram from scratch. So it's a great place to go if you're a beginner, and it's a really good refresher on the basics. If you're an advanced student, most advanced students who've listened to the course learned a lot new and fresh about the Enneagram, and it kind of clarified how all the background concepts that that make the Enneagram, the Enneagram, fit together into a coherent framework. So check out the intro course. And if you think that you would be a good candidate to be interviewed on this show, then I would love to hear from you. You have to know your type and preference goes to people who have been officially typed by the typing [email protected] I think that the typing team at enneagrammer is the world's most accurate Enneagram typing service. And you can go check out their typing services at their website, enneagrammer.com and you can also check out their members area where you can watch them. You can learn their typing method by watching them type celebrities in real time based on watching YouTube videos. Finally, I want to mention that this podcast and The Enneagram School is part of a wider network of Enneagram collaborators that are just brilliant. And I want to mention a couple other of the creative things that are happening in our space. One is a podcast called sinsomnia, which is a podcast where the Dream Girls, as they call themselves, explore the relationship between the unconscious realm and the Enneagram through dreams, and in particular, analyzing their own dreams. And also, we have a new podcast called House of Enneagram, where we pool all of our creative talents from all the disparate sources that we are and projects that we're currently involved in, and we come together under one roof to explore Enneagram insights, as well as how the Enneagram, when used as a lens, can reveal interesting things about arts and politics and pop culture and current events and things like that. So all the links to all that stuff will be in the show notes. I'm particularly recommending you check out house of Enneagram, because that's we just launched it, and it's fresh and it's really good. So check that out. And with that said, that is it for me. Thank you very much, and I'll see you next time.
Unknown Speaker 1:34:02
You.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
