Moses 0:00
Like it to me, it's like, not just, I'm proud to be autistic, like, it's, I'm proud to be me, like, I'm not, you know, just proud to be a gay man. I'm not just proud to be all these other demographics. I'm proud to be me, like, it's it to me, like it's like, it's beyond, um, these basic demographics, like, just beyond being on the spectrum, beyond being we're beyond, like, even my skin color. Like, I don't feel like I have, like, kind of adopted a culture, like, I've kind of, like, created my own culture. And this is for me, a May alone, and anybody else who wants to join in. Like, sure, go ahead, but this is my flavor. Like, this is my thing that's separate from these
Josh Lavine 0:39
boxes. Welcome to another episode of what it's like to be you. I'm Josh Lavon, your host, and on this show, I interview accurately typed guests about their experience as their Enneagram type. Today, my guest is Moses Williams, who's 18 years old and he's a social self. Pres five, wing 6513, tri fix as a type in the mental center, type five is looking for a stable and reliable and truthful orientation by which it can navigate reality and as a rejection type type five is opting to go about that project completely on its own. So that's in contrast to the other two types in the mental center, type six and type seven, which, in contrast to five, are somewhat less mentally isolationist. Type five, you could say is the most radically mentally independent type on the Enneagram. So as a social type, Moses has a very tender need and drive to have fulfilling social relationships, but as a five, he has found himself somewhat bewildered about how to actually go about doing that. And it's also important to mention that Moses is on the autism spectrum, which adds a little extra color to that difficulty. So Moses became interested in psychology as a way to understand how to have social relationships and how to navigate the social realm. Something that tends to be true of fives is that fives are interested in topics that tend to make other people uncomfortable or wince because they are scary or disturbing in some kind of way, and this is certainly true of Moses. And so I want to issue a trigger warning at the beginning of this episode, because we talk freely in this episode about topics that may not be appropriate for sensitive ears, like pornography, sexual deviance, suicide and the like, to me, this conversation is a really good example of how type five is not operating from a place of mild curiosity about the world or a light proclivity to have intellectual pursuits, but rather from a place of almost like a violating level of disorientation and bewilderment, sometimes even about baseline things that other people take for granted as just part of their instinctual intelligence. So if you'd like to learn more about type five and about the Enneagram then please check us out at The Enneagram School, and I recommend you check out our intro course as well. I hope to see you there. And until then, please enjoy this conversation with Moses. So I'd love to start with, how are you feeling right this
Moses 3:02
moment, my heart's spinning fast. I am I, like, feeling like a body sensations, like, where am I in the heart? Like, like, those kind of feelings, yeah,
Josh Lavine 3:18
just your state, yeah. What's happening for you?
Moses 3:23
Really? I think I'm excited. I think I'm excited. I am excited. I think I feel pretty good about this interview.
Josh Lavine 3:35
Me too. I'm really excited to do this with you, and I was so like, your typing video was just so incredibly delightful, and I was really excited to reach out to you and do this and the first, so the first question I want to ask you, and then we'll get into kind of the the rest of the topics that we discussed. First question I asked you is, how did your upbringing shape your awareness of psychology and the inner world?
Moses 4:02
Um, so, I was introduced to the Enneagram by my older brother. I was 12 years old. Actually, I was introduced to Myers Briggs. And I talked about this before, but like, basically, I found my ice rigs, took a test, and, like, my naive ass was like, let's just see what this test is. And I got tied to this type, which I greatly disliked. And like, it was, it was a 16 personalities.com, this bullshit. It was, like, this little description. I didn't know that, but I read the description. It was like, huh, I gotta find out more about this. And I was thinking that my god, like, is there something that I'm missing here? And, um, yeah, like, I was introduced to the Enneagram much later. I don't I dove right into that. Hated the first time my brother thought I was, um. And which one to two series in this time,
Josh Lavine 5:03
brother typed you five. Your brother typed you as a five right away. Okay, yeah, yeah.
Moses 5:08
Like, it was, yeah, as a kid, I was a pretty, I would say I would be a pretty BS, five. Like, I was pretty, like, I was pretty withdrawn. I didn't like everyone. I did I hated most people, like every single person that had eyes and ears and like, I didn't care so much to be involved, or at least, like, I basically told myself, like, I don't care too much about the outside world. I don't want to be involved out there. And like, I saw people is just kind of obnoxious and annoying and bothersome. And I thought, What's the need to them like? So I just stayed alone, doing my own thing. And yeah, I can, like, I can go off on just being a loner, like, I didn't, like, I wasn't thinking that I'm lonely or shy, because I don't know they seem kind of cheesy. And also, I didn't experience myself. I was kind of lonely.
Josh Lavine 6:11
What were you doing when you went off on your own? To wonder when you were Yeah,
Moses 6:17
yeah. I was interested in animals. I was really like, I think all I remember knowing about was like, like, I watched these animal documentaries. Or, like, the only thing like, like, I don't really remember reading a lot of books, except for these animal encyclopedias and maybe, like, maybe I've read plenty of books before, but I don't really remember much. But I was collecting stuff to animals. I was obsessed with animal encyclopedias. I was drawing them. I was yeah, like I had my own deep like, I was just yeah, just yeah, all of it was animals. And I think that's most of what I remember from my childhood, um, and, oh, what else like, it's like. I think animals really interest me because, um, I think I don't know, I don't know what it is like, um, I think it was a strong to it. It's just like, um, like, one, one, good, one interesting facet of it is that, like, I really was afraid of snakes. Yeah, I really am interested in, I really like snakes. Like,
Josh Lavine 7:31
I am wearing a necklace of snakes, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because,
Moses 7:35
uh, and like, there's, like, there's something like, ever since I first saw a snake swallowing something whole. I was just terrified, but I was drawn to it. Nonetheless. It's like, Huh? It's like, I don't know, like, when you confront something that you're afraid of, it's like, here bar right here, and there's this fearsome image right over here, and it kind of gets you like right in the moment, instantly. And also, I think it sets a like, there's something interesting about brutal nature and different it is from other people.
Josh Lavine 8:15
So just real quick on that that's a that's just an interesting point right there, just having something that you're terrified of and then wanting to look more closely at it, because there, right, there are other types, a lot of a lot of other types of Enneagram would would have the opposite reaction, like, just stay away from the thing that I'm terrified of. And we could potentially characterize it as cataphobic or whatever. But I just, it's interesting to me that you, yeah, you were scared and you wanted to look closer and even get kind of more intimate intellectually with it. Or, how would you face it? But, yeah,
Moses 8:50
like, um, it's like, I would have no problem. Like, talking about, like, like, as a kid, I was talking about these animal fats or different things. I don't think they, I don't really think that they disturb other people, or at least, I don't remember other people being disturbed. But sometimes my family, like my mother's like, Oh, don't talk about that at the table. So approaching that like as a kid, like I didn't really, I don't know. I think it was just interested in for the sake of interest. And um, I think I just approach it, like, I didn't think of it as entirely intellectual, like, I approach it very, uh, very mentally, like, it's, um, like, I'm not a part of this, but I, I would like to, but, you know, like, this is just, you know, something that I'm kind of gross into. Like, yeah, I'm, first of all, uh, raised in a conservative Christian household, like, um, oh, what like as a kid where, like, my parents would allow, would not allow anything with monsters, Magic Mouse, like, as a team, like when I first got, um, like, my tablet and I had free access to the internet and everything, um, I realized that, Oh, my God, we listen nervous. Of like, because like, my like I was doing into my own interest at the time then, but then like, having reacted from the internet, and then doing quite other things with it, and exploring parts myself and more information. Like, there's so many things that I that my parents have just completely walled off, like, because of their beliefs and whatnot. Is
Josh Lavine 10:25
it religious beliefs, or is it cultural beliefs, or it was
Moses 10:29
specifically religious beliefs, like, Okay And funny enough, like I saw, like, other Christian families go for trick or treating or Christmas decoration, like they decorate their house for Christmas. And I was saying to my parents, why don't we do that? Like, what happened? And there's kind of like this, like, my parents just said, Oh, we don't do that because it's wrong. And, you know, like, they say this whole ritual thing and like, um, like, even, like, when first finding out, like, um, I remember it was a for better or for worse comic book where something was coming out as gay to their mom, and I asked my parents, like, Hey, what's that mean? And they closed down comic books and they like, they basically, like, shut down. The entire conversation was like, what was it? It's like this silent exclusion sort of thing where parents are just not being on the suitor kids, yeah, and like, there's a whole lot of this kind of, you know, traditional cultural Christian repression on what's wrong or what's bad.
Josh Lavine 11:38
How old were you around? Like, in that specific example of the comic book,
Moses 11:42
um, I was probably seven or eight. Yeah,
Josh Lavine 11:45
really young. I can't remember, but my so your your reaction as you recall it, in the moment of that, or in that, in that time was, was what was it like? Oh, no, here's a menu of options. Was it like, oh, okay, this is wrong. Mom and Dad don't like this, so I should not do it. Or was it suspicious or confused? Confused? I
Moses 12:05
was just confused. Yeah, like, my parents are just, like, I always thought, like my parents were just hiding something that they don't, that they were hiding some information. For me, it's like the hell is going on. And, you know, like, sometimes I had the thoughts where, like, like, secretly, like, my parents are not, like, like, actually are different other worldly beings that you know, are destined to control me, and everyone else is just, you know, part of assimilation. And I thought I had to find a way to get out of it. Um, yeah, and yeah, like, there's plenty of information, like, um, like, even my sexuality, like, I didn't know what sexuality was. I didn't even know what being a homosexual meant, but until much later, but like, as a kid, I knew all about that. And then once I actually had access to the internet, I I basically, like, had more time to look it up, and, like, I was actually delving much into this kind of kind of pornographic world there where, you know, most kids, like, actually would view, like, um, like, I think there's kind of this idea of where, like, like parents or like, like, older generations, and even my generation I've seen where there's kind of this fear and stigma about, you know, teaching sex to children, teaching kids about sex, or teaching the younger generation about sexuality and whatnot, because there's this idea of sexual, sexualizing children, and I think it's just pointing sexuality in no matter what age and and there's old like rite of passage on age of consent, drinking laws, smoking laws, bring it back to 18 for God's sake. But, yeah, um, but you know there, I think sexuality, whether people know it or not, is present in everyone. And like, I try to figure out, like, um, like, I don't want to, like, end up becoming some sort of creep in the future. So, like, I looked up, like, why is pedophilia thing? Why is, why are these sexual deviants or fantastical things in there, and there's not much of an explanation for it. It's like it's just happens to be there, and there's so many tensions I'm going on here.
Josh Lavine 14:27
Well, actually, let me, let me stop you for a second, because I just want to point out some five themes that I'm noticing. And then we can kind of go into any of these trails that you're opening. But you know what's really clear about your relationship with the kind of orienting field around you during your upbringing was that you felt like there was something that adults were hiding from you. And when you had when you got your iPad, it was like this whole world of possible investigations opened up to you, and you really started exp. Boring, and that included topics that are kind of held in your culture to be taboo, especially sex and pornography and things like that and and even just investigating things like pedophilia and these kind of darker sexual crevices psyche. It's like, what is that? You know, this question, what is that? Why does it exist? These. These are the kinds of things that we see with fives where it's like, the kinds of things that people don't that sometimes, I don't know, cringe over or it makes them uncomfortable. Fives are just like, wait, what's going on there? And then they go in, you know, and explore. So, yeah.
Moses 15:41
Like, there's feet fetishes, there's leather fetishes, there's animal fetishes. They're like, there's a, like, a little shit fetish, like, I yeah, oh my god. Like, I read a book where, oh my god, this book where, basically, there's this, um, like, this teenager, like, goes into this guy's house and, like, there's this whole, like, sexual ritual, and he's, I think he's kind of sexually abused there where, um, basically, but he does come back. So it's like, Oh, that's weird. But basically, um, there's this kind of sexual ritual where he, like, where this guy licks his ass and these shits. And it's like, wow, like that is like, weird and fucking disgusting, but I'm like, okay, yeah, and American psych, like, even American Psycho is, like, a really good representation of like, sexual blindness and how perverse and perverse that can Be, and like, even how like, sexual is destructive. And like, I think with what Patrick Bateman does, or any fantasizes, and even like his, let's go fetish, he like, like, even with violence, I think his like murders fantasies and like, even ejaculating on to, you know, headless women to blood and to, like, just things that he could he should get STDs for he like, I think there's a way where sexual is, like, destructive and piercing. And I think with that, like, please do enlighten me on the sexual mind, like blindness. But, and I think David, like, I remember David Gray said something, and I'll shout out to him later. Or David Gray said something about, like, there's kind of a piercingness into that perspective, sexual and basically with, and there's kind of that literal representation of, like, sexual with, literally destroying the body and literally, like, murdering and killing somebody, and, like, even with, like, disgusting, weird shit. But yeah, so
Josh Lavine 17:49
I guess my question is, what's your relationship with your sexuality and your story? Is there a story of you coming out and also, so that's actually Question one, but Question two is, what I'm really struck by is how populated your inner world is, is with these images of kind of horrifying sexual deviancy and how just kind of fascinating that is to you. Yeah, what? Where? Where does that fascination come from? And, yeah,
Moses 18:21
yeah, I think my fascination comes from frustration in not knowing about this earlier, okay, and and realizing how, like, oh my god, I'm so stupid and naive, I gotta find this out quickly.
Josh Lavine 18:37
Okay, the naive thing, that's a really interesting word, like, I would say, like, yeah, it's like, it's like this, when you notice that you're being naive, or when you are naive about something, it's like, what's what comes up? Like, an impulse to, an impulse to understand, like, I have to, I have to not be naive anymore. I have to, I have to get this,
Moses 18:54
yeah, like, there's, there's a whole story with, you know, just being naive. But I'll go into the other track then, okay, um, where I think I experienced my sexuality and as like, it's like, it's present in me, like, and again, I'm not even sure if this is part of being autistic and maybe I have Some undiagnosed hyper sexuality, but I don't think that's possible, because I'm like, Well, does everybody think this way? Like, where? Like, sometimes I do, like, um, like, I kind of fall in love quite easily. And um, like, if I have no person or object that I'm like, you know, I want, or I'm obsessed with, I can't have, like, it's like, nothing, like, there's nothing there. Like I need, I need something to gratify myself with. Like, I need something to like, you know, obsessed with, and that's much of my inner world. And, yeah, like, there's. Yeah, like, I'm kind of aware of where culture has, you know, an underbelly of sexuality, yet there's this kind of hypocritical conservatism. Well, just real quick
Josh Lavine 20:11
a commentary on what you're saying. It's I'm I'm hearing a lot of the first of all, social self pros, like awareness of how the collective holds rules and policies and regulations and things like that, and and five wing six, where it's like the six wing kind of orienting you to how the collective is, is, is, let's see how to put it. It's like you actually are aware of and ingesting how others are orienting and then finding your own way of like, poking at it and disagreeing with it from your kind of five inner world that makes sense from your five perspective. Like,
Moses 20:48
like, in other words, it's like seeing that there's something off, and looking at the collective and examining it as it is, which is kind of like skewed negative, and honestly, like, it's like, I wouldn't like, I think I'm pretty like, I see myself as pretty realistic. But it's, it's probably, like, skewed negative, because maybe it is negative, like it is just ending up to be, well, yeah,
Josh Lavine 21:14
I'll just say it's like, you're, you're aware of the silliness and arbitrariness of these, of these rules that people hold and hold as almost sacred, like an implicit social contract. And right? It's like all of this lands on you as worthy of poking at and investigating and questioning and just sort of like, Wait, that doesn't seem right, that doesn't seem right, that doesn't seem right. So you kind of take that into your inner world, and you're tinkering with it. And then, and then, now you have like, opinions about what it should be, or, or, or just kind of want to throw it all in the air, or something like that,
Moses 21:44
yeah. Like, my whole, my whole goal is basically getting rid of the social contract, okay, like, basically, like, it's like, there's a social contract for a reason. But to me, it's like, I'm like, I'm still figuring it all out. Like, Hell am. I actually just like, these are just like, little like snippets of, what if God and like, Okay, well, maybe just more. But part of it is like, yeah, like, either replace it or destroy it, or, like, some other, like, ridiculous, radical idea where it's like, get rid of like, half or three fourths of the universe and start over. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Like, having too many people and getting this social contract up, like it's really complex to get into a whole solution for the collective
Josh Lavine 22:32
Yeah. I wanted to follow this thread of naive, this word naive, that has, it feels like that word has a lot of charge for you. You know, when you, when you discover that you that you are naive about something, it feels like, Oh, God, I have to, I have to, I have to understand more about whatever that thing is. And I think that there's a trail there, right to to that, to the worst moment of your life that you want to take you want to take
Moses 22:58
us there. Um, yeah, so it was, now, it's three years ago. Basically, I was in the theater camp, and I was starting out to socialize, and I still think that, yeah, I'm like, like, part of it's like, I know, like, like, I want to, like, have significant people in my life. I realize that. And I was like, I'm not gonna even try to, like, read all these, like, ridiculous self influence, or how to be more social. Like I was, like, I was reading about body language. I was still learning a little bit about psychology at the time, and, yeah, I was into the Enneagram. I was obsessed with it and everything. And I think there was, like, a moment, where this is gonna get really embarrassing. So I was interested in someone, and like in my mind, I was slowly thinking, something is off and something doesn't seem quite right, or some, something doesn't quite seem to make sense, like it's like, it's as if that like, I'm starting to get an unrequited affection or an erect, like, unrecorded love, if you know, in me, or this unrecorded kind of
Josh Lavine 24:24
agreement you were the one wanting. In the other end, it wasn't being reciprocated. Yeah,
Moses 24:30
yeah, I've been and, like, basically, like, after the first performance, I it hit me that, like, I was like, first I was extremely tired. And like, it was, like, it was kind of a long day, like, I didn't think that was like, like, I'm like, I'm used to long days. I'm used to playing with activity. And I thought, No, that's okay. And then I got tired. I was like, why am I tired? And like, it's like, my body was just like, there's this whole. Like, sunken, downward, heavyweight energy of nothing and it and I was just going on a blank like, I did not know what, like, I did not know what it was. I couldn't try to interact. I couldn't try to do anything. I couldn't like, I was sitting there, just with a blink. I was like, What the hell is going on? And it kind of hit me where it's like, I can't do this. And I
Josh Lavine 25:32
this being, yeah,
Moses 25:34
like, this being like, I can't. Like, not only is it unreciprocated, but it's also, like, having relationships the first place is not possible, okay. And like, like, as a kid, I was, um, basically, like, you know, being a loner, like, doing my own thing. And, yeah, like, I it hit me how much I have, like, and that was like, it hit me much more than when I first, first introduced the Myers, Briggs and Enneagram, where I have basically cut off every single opportunity to even Like, make a make a connection, or do or be involved. Wow. And, yeah, I oh my god. And I was thinking that, like, I was trying to, like, like, after Myers Briggs, I was like, Okay, I'm gonna be more I'm gonna get out there. I'm gonna be I'm going to find more people and like, I'm going to finish my way. And I realized that my way wasn't working, and it was as if I kind of failed at something, and
Unknown Speaker 27:01
I was really depressed, like I was it was like, it was like, I was trying to beat the odds, or basically beat God.
Moses 27:15
God was like, No, you're stuck here. You're doing this no matter what. And I was just horrified
Josh Lavine 27:22
at that, though doomed to the oblivion of Yeah, of relational incompetence and just yeah, that
Moses 27:27
Yeah, yeah, and not just Yeah, well, definitely relation, definitely relationship incompetence, and not finding, you're not finding any significant people like these are like, it's like these people were just it, and I'm stuck here and I can't do anything, and it was okay, yeah, horrible to me. And like I had and also I noticed that, like, as I was socializing, like, these teenagers, like, seem to have some way of worth a like, a way of being where I can't even describe it much at words, but it's like they've Well, I can only, like, say to the multiple examples where people tell me that you've got to adapt, or you've got to be more positive, like, um, yeah. And it still goes on like, um, oh, my God. There's this math teacher I had last semester, and like, she pulled me aside on, like, what I was watching on teen project, she pulled me aside and she said, You've got to learn how to be more positive. And that was, like, the most shocking thing I've ever heard from her, especially from like, she's like, at the time, she was pretty unlikeable, she was pretty hard, she was pretty blunt. Like, she's like, she's like, this is my queen of this is what I do, and people don't like her. And it was incredibly shocking for me to hear that from her. And like she said, like she said, like, you gotta be more positive because it works. And to me, it's like, no, I'm gonna do it my way, but I'm gonna make it work, or otherwise I'm gonna like, basically, like, I have an idea where it's like, you know, sending terms and conditions, where it's like, okay, this is what you do. This is what you like, kind of just like, odd left tango, embarrassing, where you go into this room to do this one thing, but no names, no identities, no I don't want to hear about your life. We just offered assemblies, and like, I had this orientation, orientation to teamwork, where it's like, basically the way we work is, like, we pull our own weight, like we have set rules, or we have or otherwise, like, like, the way I do teamwork is basically not working with people, where, like, I just work alone and do all the work because I cannot rely on other people to do anything at all. And
Josh Lavine 29:47
like, That quote is so good, the way I do teamwork is I don't work
Moses 29:52
people, yeah, yeah. Like, I, like, I think that people are just like, you know, like, part of it is that, like. But there's a way where I enjoy ventures where people don't get credit and people are left behind. It's like, Yeah, but the other part is like, I can't rely on other people to just pull their own weight or to bring something to the table. And like, like, I can only think of like, what, less than two people, three people, who I can, who can, I can actually, like, would be interested in working with the team, with but, like, for various reasons, and but for most people, it's like, I can barely see potential. I don't see anything. Like, what's the point? So I just exclude everything. And it's like, okay, well, if you want to assume a role, you do this, and I do this done. I don't care, like, leave your personal bullshit elsewhere. Yeah, and, but
Josh Lavine 30:46
there's this, so there's this theme of self reliance. I can't rely on anyone. And also, just going back to the the moment of devastation that you had, right where it was like you felt, actually, can I read I wrote a quote down from your typing video. Can I want to read it back to you and just take us there? So you said, you said, what happened is that I learned all that I knew about people was in vain, that I didn't know enough at all. Like, why are they having all these things, relationships, I'm assuming, and I don't what's wrong with the world? And then, actually, you caught yourself. You said, I almost said, What's wrong with me? And then you were like, there's nothing wrong with me. It's just wrong with the universe. So there's some one fixed stuff there. And through four fix also, and then. And then you said, but yeah, there was something wrong with me. You kind of settled. And they said, all, all I knew is that I was ignorant and naive, and I need to figure this whole flawed, messy, bullshit existence that is outside of me out.
Moses 31:46
It was basically me saying I am not flawed, but I realized that, yeah, I am a piece of shit. I have to, like, confront that basically, like, um, yeah. Like, that kind of ties back into the story where, like that was prior to knowing big Norman Enneagram and getting to you and all the other things that I'm interested in now. And like, at that moment of Oblivion, I was the first thought I would like. Basically, I had two options, either a I like, um, you kind of like, like, have you seen, like, A Clockwork Orange?
Josh Lavine 32:24
Yes, yeah, Reddit, Yeah, amazing. Where, where
Moses 32:28
I'm like, I haven't read a book, unfortunately. But like, basically, Alex, like, becomes good in which they basically get rid basically they get rid of, they basically kind of dehumanize him, or, like, force him to be disgusted at bad, violent, graphic, sexual images. Yeah, they sanitize him and yeah, like, I had the option, like, my option A was either becoming sanitized and becoming like an automaton, where I basically delete and erase everything from my mind, and then, kind of like become this adaptive model for people, yeah, or I 100% eliminate myself from this world, and like, I like, I like, those were, that was just what I was thinking. Like it was, it was awful. Like I was like, either I'm gonna, like, I gotta get out of here. Like, I cannot be stuck anymore ways. I gotta find a way to, like, strip this out. I gotta find a way to strip this out and basically liberate not just like like, not just liberate like, liberate other people, and liberate people's conceptions and like these assumptions. And was
Josh Lavine 33:55
that a third option? That, what you just said, Yeah, option three. Yeah,
Moses 33:58
that that was the third option. Yeah. I said there were two options, but yeah, like there's the third option of basically the
Josh Lavine 34:06
three options just on following. The three options are one completely change yourself so that you become a palatable, acceptable person. That, yeah, is, is kind of a blank slate, but can be in relationship. Option two is an automaton, yeah. Option two is, you said your phrase, eliminate yourself from this world. And I'm, I'm assuming that applies, like, suicide, suicide, yeah. And then the third option is, let's see how to put it in my language. It would be like,
Moses 34:40
I guess, um, basically, um, like, stripping out people's assumptions. Like, there's, like, I had the idea that people's assumptions, like, everything out there, yeah, people were doing were wrong, and I see stupid, and I'm gonna basically eliminate them. I'm gonna, like, strip all the. Assumptions out and have, like, something else, like, I'm gonna like, I think that's the atomic bomb that I was kind of mentioning in the typing video. Yes,
Josh Lavine 35:08
yeah, so you talking about so option three is change other people's view of what it means to be in relationship, or change other people's assumptions. Just rip out their whole social construct and then implants a better one, you know, your own, yeah, yeah. That makes them better people, more open to being a relationship with people like you.
Moses 35:32
And maybe, well, it's, it's not just about the relationships, but what it means to be a person or like who you are, and just yeah, like, general humanistic assumptions, yes, yeah. And I think at the time it was relationship to me. It's like, in other words, I kind of want to play God, but again, I couldn't read all these ridiculous self help books, or, like, How to Win Friends or influence people, or lions don't need to roar, or something like that. And I read two of Robert Greene's books, laws of human nature and 48 Laws of Power, which I thought explained a lot more, and most of some of it's like political science, like, I even read Machiavelli's the prince, because I thought, like, it's not like part of it is not just like, Oh, it's just being nice and friendly to me. It's like there's an underlying power within it, and like there's a power that people have in themselves, and somehow people submit themselves to that power, like people just simply, basically give their own power to someone else. And that's what was, I was looking at at the time, basically, like, when I learned about relationship, is that, like, there's like, it's not just, you know, like, how to like make friends, or how to like get a partner or get someone who you're really interested in what I mean interested. It's not like, I mean all the interests, like, social interests, sexual interest, everything, um, it's, it's also that, um, like, there's a way where finding, you can find compatible people like, Um, okay, that there are people that I did not like, and people that I hated, and I mentioned that like, I hated, like, as a kid, I hated just about everyone I didn't want to be around people and like, part of it is that it's like, it's a puzzle where you will have To be incredibly selective and yet find a way. Like, what makes you like, what would make a person interested in you? And like, you know that you're interested in persons. Like, okay, how do you do it? Like, what's a what's a plan for
Josh Lavine 37:52
it? I was gonna just put, like, a lot of all the pieces of your typing structure come together in this moment for me, because it's like, this option three is essentially, it's, it's motivated by a social instinct, like a desire for relationship. It's, I want to, I want to rip out the underlying assumptions that people have and implant them with, like, new and better ideas. That's five plus. It's one. It's like, you know, I'm in sort of a world improvement, removing the contaminants and irritants and kind of restoring a natural order. And it's also, in a way, it's three it's like a self improvement project, you know? It's, like, it's, it's for both for you and them, you know, it's, we're gonna, we're gonna be better together.
Moses 38:35
Yeah, we're gonna be better. But you will absolutely hate me. Um, and, yeah, like, it's like, I found where people can, like, like, the idea that, like, I've had people tell me that sometimes you have to do things that you don't want to do, which is like, shocking thing, because it's like, why on earth would you Why on earth would anybody do what you don't want to do? That doesn't make sense. Like, I thought, like everyone was doing things because they wanted to do it. It's like, okay, like, that's it. There's no question. But secretly, everyone was like, there's a reason why people complain, or why people, like, have this issue and problem with this teaches this way, or that sort of thing. It's like, they don't want it, yeah, yeah. And, of course, like, I think life is a desperate like, yeah, there are things you don't want to do. Like, that's part of life, and that's kind of what makes life interesting, strangely enough, because it's like, well, yeah, you you have to struggle to things that you will have to suffer through and don't like like, you know you can't like imagine, to the people who make native shelters like you can't, you know, just wish for a practical or an improved shelter like you had to cut down a few trees. You have to gather all the materials to have this conference. Comfort and most of society, I think, is leading towards an area of comfort where it's like, yeah, we have aI doing everything for us, and zoom calls, which actually remove quite a lot, despite it being convenient and easy for people. But part of it is like, like, in relationships, I've seen where like, um, like, people can say that they don't like other people, like even the people that they see their friends with. And that was partly like, that was surprising to me. And like, even, like, hearing the podcast where basically everyone was mixed up, and everyone, like, just chooses like, incompatible people that was like, wow. Like, why? Like, what happened? And you're like, like, people can be like, friends with people that they're clearly not compatible with, or they don't even care about, or they like, or they're not wishing to be with. Like, I imagine, like, if everybody was in that mentality to search for a compatible person, then I don't think we have what most people are experiencing today. Like, I think there'd be, like, billions of you know, people who would just, I think would be even either be a different, an entirely different culture or advice. Like, if everybody figured figured that out, like, 50 years ago, I think it'd still be, like, I think this area would be secluded. That's how, like, I don't think I'd even be here, like, even in partnerships, where people would get into people who are, they are not, like, gravitated to, like, attracted to, yeah, which, that's like, shocking. Like, I like, I have an idea of how that happens, but to me, it's like, it's like, I gotta figure out. It's like, you know, people just adapting and like, seeing that, okay, like, there's recognizing that, maybe it's please enlightening of this because, but like, there's this way where they're recognizing, okay, there's something I want, but I don't want this, but I'm just gonna leave it aside, and then it won't be a big deal until it comes up much later.
Josh Lavine 42:09
Is your vision of an ideal world, one in which people simply don't adapt to each other and reveal their full true nature, and then from that place, people can find who they're compatible with, just kind of easily, and instead of this kind of concealing, adaptation, morphing field in which you are kind of, I don't know, an outlier, because if you're not, I sometimes
Moses 42:34
it's hard to conceptualize an ideal world, because part of it being realistic, where it's like, oh my god, how's that gonna happen? Like, sometimes like doesn't even require just so many people and like, like, not just like to be like, any harsh or violent in any way, but it's like in some way where it's like, yeah, like, we're kind of overpopulated, and this ideal world has, like, um, part of it just like, yeah, there's an ideal world for everyone. And then at the end, it's like, resigning to, well, okay, well, this is an ideal world for me. Like, I don't like everyone else doesn't have to be here. But maybe there are, you know, few people that could be within that's for me and for everyone else, that's for them to deal with. And there's this kind of whole they determinism sort of thing, where it's like, is everyone, like, destined to, you know, be fucked up or be messed up, and, you know, like it's and they don't even know that's their destiny. And like, that's like, even I make an assumption about determinism. But, and there are, like, few people who would actually, you know, look for something real, like um, and kind of getting into the spiritual kind of this spiritual thing where it's like, nobody's getting enlightened. Like, there are few people like um, like this Nietzsche coat where, um, there's only one Christian, and he died on the cross, and everyone else who states they're basically following through on that, like, everybody who says they're Christians, like, they're basically not, but, um, in other words, like, um, there's this one way where, like, maybe a few people are, you know, can fulfill their destiny, and other people Just don't. And that, in a way, it's kind of a odd Destiny itself, and that's kind of an assumption in itself, but that's where my mind is going. Oh, and I'm sorry one last thing, where I absolutely despise liars and like, my assumption is like, if, like, I have actually, like, I've managed to like, like, of course, I'm not suicidal. Now I have a pretty good trajectory of my life, projection of where my life is going. Um, I like, I'm still not content with just friendship, but I I'm really glad about the very few friends that I have. I. Yeah, and to me, like if someone is doing something for you, or if someone has proclaimed friendship, or someone has said something that means to me, that means that to me, that comes to me, I think you're coming from an honest place. But if you say that and then turn your back on it, or do something else, or actually mean something else. It's like, what did you say that for? Like, why waste your time? Like, to me, it's like, are you just trying to, like, fuck with me or something? And to me, it's like, if you like, like, if someone tried to, like, you know, ruin me. It's like, why on earth would someone do that? Like, it's so odd. Like, I don't like, like, sometimes it's really odd to get through other people who just you know, people who just you know, live to ruin other people's lives. It's like, why? I don't understand what
Josh Lavine 45:47
does, for lack of a better way to put this like, what does socializing really mean to you? Why? Why is it so important to find people what's, what's, what is friendship and relationship and what's so important about that
Moses 46:02
for you? Um, I think, in a way, it's getting to the heart where it's, um, it's, I suppose there's like, um, I I think there's so much about the heart that I don't know about, or I haven't experienced much of but I think that finding people in um, it's just like, a way of recognizing that like, like, I have like, a like, I think it's Just pushing through that backlog of um, backlog of loneliness and regret and like, like, I used to think that I don't have any regrets. I'm pretty proud of going like. I'm proud of William. I like going out. I would not want to train myself to be anyone. Hell, I wouldn't want to be a three. I wouldn't want to be a I wouldn't want to be seven. I wouldn't want to be any or a second type I'm I'm proud of being myself, but it's pushing through this backlog of regret, and it's kind of like, I don't know, like, I think, like at that moment where it hit me, It was like I was a a six year old who thought he knew so much about the world too, but really doesn't. And I like, I see myself as pretty. I don't want to call myself an adult because, um, I don't I don't want to call myself an adult for various reasons. But I I see myself as like, um, I don't know, like, I'm kind of mature in a way worse, I feel like I experienced myself as kind of mature in a way where it's like, it's not even like, I can't even define it as an age, or maybe the best guess is like, maybe mid 30s, and has no mid life whatsoever. But most of it is that there's this backlog of how immature and naive my relationship to not just knowing about these relationships, but also to, I think, also to my heart as well, where it's like, Yes, yeah, I've got a like, I feel like I need to grow up in some way. You
Josh Lavine 48:28
know, it's amazing how much you feel stabbed.
Moses 48:31
Yeah, like, I've deliberately, like, stabbed. I deliberately just poke myself and then some, like, I talked myself a lot, and I talked to myself about this, like, Oh, this is how the interview is gonna go. And like, I talked to myself about this, and I was like, just like, it's like, this hard, it's just like, bleeding, and something's gotta go. And like, I kind of don't want emote right now on camera, but there's something that's saying, Yeah, you need to address this. Like, this is, like, this is something that's got to be at the forefront,
Josh Lavine 49:05
sure, yeah, and what's the, what's this?
Moses 49:10
This, um, I this is like, um, the arc. This is, um, beyond my I think there's a like, like in spirituality, there's like, there's kind of this way where it's like, being more positive or being like a like to telling a thinking type to feel is just like, ridiculous. It's like, like, you can't just force it like, you can't just like, you know, if someone is, you know, wanting significant people, you can't just tell that person to, you know, go out to groups or be more social, right? And that's what I learned. And there's to me, it's like finding that in myself. I. Yeah, and there's so many, there's quite a lot of I think I just like constantly learning something new. And I'm shipping a few layers off of how, how this really, how the heart is, of what, what it really means, and some letting it come up. Yeah,
Josh Lavine 50:23
you know, I'm really struck, or I'm really struck by something, just how, you know, how, how tender this desire is for connection, and I mean, especially as a social type, you know, like and, and how, how painful it is when that, when it, when it doesn't happen in the way you want it. And also the the realization, like the profound realization a few years ago that you had of like, oh my god, I actually don't really feel like I know how to do this. And you said, in your typing interview, or in your typing video, you said, it's amazing and surprising how people can just have friends without knowledge of psychology. And I found that to be so like, such a succinct way to put kind of this social five dilemma, of like, people are just doing this instinctually, but it feels like I need a better mental model. I need a better way of approaching this and and then this kind of two, it's almost like there was a what's the right way to put this, a two intellectual tracks that you started going on at the same time in parallel. One was through the Robert Green lens and Jungian psychology and things like that, trying to understand, why are people so fucked up? What is that? What the hell is going on here? What is this brutal social jungle that I live in that is so hard to kind of just have relationships the way I want? And then the other was, how do I become more competent at this? And how do I, how do I learn more about people so that I can actually offer something to be connected to, or can find the right people, or find people that I'm compatible with, and be the kind of person that the people I want to be in relationship want to be in relationship with me. So, yeah, go ahead, yeah.
Moses 52:14
And oh, part of that last thing is that, like, I'm also Saturn bold, where it's like, yeah, there's a bunch of like, coldness. And like in like, Saturn represents distance, and Saturn being also the darkest planet, and also being, like, traditionally, the coldest planet. And way I understand it, okay, where it's like, there's, I think there's underneath a shadow where that's not in my self image, of like being Aquarius rising of a backlog of, oh my god, like there's this whole messy emotional shit That, to me, it's like, um, you know, like, if these emotions do come out, it's like, What will I be? I'm terrified about that, yeah, yeah. And, um, yeah. And, oh, these two intellectual tracks, um, I think, like, when finding out, like, how I think this is actually kind of me, like, um, kind of witnessing some of the like intelligence of, like, of the other people who are like, I think especially sixes, especially social sixes, which I kind of have, like, a hate bias of them, but I really appreciate them. Like, I'm like, I'm trying to like, I I think I'm starting to appreciate six a lot more, especially, like, separate social especially because, like, sometimes, like, when asking, like, like, I like, I'm doing this a whole video with a new phone, and I tried to ask for like, I tried to ask like, a couple of people who are how this film plans work. How do film plans work? How does like get out of bed? I just don't have blanket, and I'm like, I don't even know what to do. Like, somebody help me
Josh Lavine 54:02
to the rescue? Yeah. And my mother
Moses 54:04
is like, yeah, just asking someone like, asking someone like these, like these, some presentation like these, questions on how much money do I need, or how does this plan work? And, like, my whole thing is, like, How much money will I be paying? What's the result? Okay, done. And there's someone, there are people who are just, you know, really good at the process of it, and really good at processing it and just getting getting it to the nitty gritty, and then coming up with something else. It was like, wow, yeah, thank you. Yeah. I feel like I'm using them as a tool, but, you know, I kind of, but yeah, there's so much there that, you know, six rejection to five that well, it feels like that they have in themselves.
Josh Lavine 54:48
It feels like you're opening to in in whatever, potentially even little narrow way, like, just how do I figure out the cell phone plan opening to the. Other people can help you figure stuff
Moses 55:03
out, yeah. Like, there's some like, there's some things that I'm just not registering, that other people just do register. Like, yeah, uh huh. Like, coming back to, like, some people with incredible social intelligence that were they noticed, like, what other people do and how other people act, and what are the dynamics, power dynamics, and everything, and like, some things that people can just read and manage to react against, that I just cannot do, or otherwise, like, I have an idea of how to do it, but sometimes it's like, I'm not even gonna like, how am I gonna get other people to just like, like, the six gathering other other people up, and how they like, gather other people up and rally other people and to like to get something, or to get involved or something. To me, it's like, I cannot fucking do that. Like I think I could. But, um, like, after my many, after those many reactions I've got, I've gotten from, like, just casually mentioned, mentioning to other people that. So I read Lolita, and I thought it was an interesting book, or American Psycho that is not possible. Yeah, yeah. So if someone could do, like, the whole advertisement thing, I would get someone else to do it. But, yeah, there's also some intelligence that I'm just I think I'm missing. Yeah,
Josh Lavine 56:27
well, you said, in your typing video, I'm gonna read another sentence you said, you said, if you're looking for an interesting person, you have to know what makes this person tick, what kind of bombs I can throw, what Mark I can make on this person. And that was in the that was in the context of, like, you trying to figure out how to, it's almost like how to, like, how to get someone, how to get a friend, or how to how to make a connection with someone,
Moses 56:55
yeah, yeah. Capture how to connect someone, yeah, yeah. Is that
Josh Lavine 57:01
still how you think about
Moses 57:03
it? Yes. So it's like, part of it is that there's the idea, there is the sometimes it could be like, I think there's a way where it can get into a delusion, and there's a way where it can get into a delusion where it's like, not being realistic, like still thinking that, like, there's a possibility of relationship, or something going to the next level and it won't, or otherwise, maybe that this person seems interested, but you don't know how to, Like, sneak into that and like, like, part, it's also looking for compatible people. Like, um, you know. Like, you can't just, you know, like, there is something that takes in with everyone, but you can't just, you know. Like, it doesn't just because there's something that you can, like, trigger something interest in someone, doesn't necessarily mean that you can be friends with everyone. Or, you know, it doesn't necessarily mean you could be with
Josh Lavine 58:05
everyone. What makes someone else be someone that you want to connect
Moses 58:10
to? Usually, they're, they're always, they always have some intellectual stimulation. Or at least they're intellectually interesting, mentally interesting, like, um, I realized that not everyone has to be like, intellectual, but they're always, there's always something mentally stimulating, like, there's something interesting, like, maybe, like, it's your humor, or some through some, most of the time it's humor, other times it's the interesting things that I can just Easily share, like and like, it took me until, it took me until, like, three years ago, to realize that, oh, other people aren't interested, like, other people just aren't interested in my interests. But part of it is that, like, there is a way where, like, yeah, you can. I'm not even talking about myself here. And like, I think usually there is some like, yeah, we can share like, it's your interest. It's to like, like, my interest in the Enneagram, or through like, books, the movies, the films do art
Josh Lavine 59:18
that that just happened real quick. That was really interesting, where you said, I'm not even talking about myself. What happened? What did you notice? Like,
Moses 59:27
I My mind went on a blink. And then I was like, Okay, well, let's go on a tangent to, and I was unconsciously thinking of going on a tangent to, yeah. So anyway, people, can, you know, do this thing.
Josh Lavine 59:46
And I like, oh shit, sort of like speaking about people in abstraction, as opposed to connecting to your own experience or something like
Moses 59:52
that. Yeah, like, I sometimes think that I, I always thought that, like, that was a really personal video, and I. Um, yeah, yeah. Mentioned that there's, um, something about, like, rejection, where it's, like, it takes a while to talk about yourself and, um, my God, have I, like, even when, even when discussing my sexuality, have I talked about much myself here? Like, I don't think it's actually mentioned it coming out. Sorry you
Josh Lavine 1:00:20
haven't, yeah, no, I'm so glad you said that, and I was tracking that too. I'm so it's amazing. I'm so glad you just did that. That was so cool. Because, like, this part of this conversation I'm tracking not so much, I would say, like when you talked about your experience of the the social pain you experienced, that was that felt personal. And even when you talked about, oh, wow, there's actually something I really need to look at here. And it felt emotional even to go to that territory, and we didn't fully go there, but it just like that. Felt personal. But when you're talking about sexuality and the brutal landscape of sexual deviance, it felt like an intellectual fascination, like it was a kind of looking through, almost like a periscope from a submarine or something like that. But it wasn't really talking about your personal experience, yeah, and there's and so that was what just happened, right there too, right? It was like, ask you a personal question, and it was almost like something you kind of like, like, went up into a different place to talk about the general case, you know?
Moses 1:01:21
Yeah, I didn't even notice I went up there. I was thinking, Yeah, but I might get back to that later. Oh, Jesus, actually, I'm gonna talk about that now. I completely forgot what I talked about five minutes ago, but I think my like, sometimes I don't I'm not even sure if this is, like, part of the sexual instinct where it's like, I'm like,
Josh Lavine 1:01:49
wait, sorry before you go there, just just to, just to tie the thread real quick. The question I asked you that you went was, what makes someone else the kind of person that you want to connect to. And I think part of your answer, I'm not sure if it was complete. Part of your answer was that they're intellectually interesting and can engage with you on topics that you like to engage on. You know, whether it's the Enneagram or psychology or whatever. And yeah, I was wondering too, if there's anything just like an energy they have, or a way they hold themselves, or, yeah, something like that. It
Moses 1:02:18
is. It's even an enter. It. It really, it can be an energy in themselves, like, it's, yeah, like, they're like, so, like, 99% of people, which, like, there's some people where it's, like, there's kind of, like a bucket or an obstacle, or, like, just looking at, like, Walmart, white bread, like, you know, like basic people at school, people who just, like, don't like, Oh my God. Those, like hoodies and like, those fucking, what are they called, burka stacks and socks with sandals and something like those, mix and like, like this, wearing, like, basic clothing. Like, sometimes, like, like, some people can wear that and, like, you know, there could be a different where, where they're, where they're wearing something incredibly basic, like, someone could just rock it, or just something about that energy was like, Oh, wow. I said, see something different than that other person, even though they're wearing relatively similar clothing. And, but, you know, like, it's, it's just a little teaser, like, there's, there's something in everyone. And, like, with most people, there's like, just, oh my god, whitewash. It's, they're just completely whitewashed.
Josh Lavine 1:03:37
Yeah,
Moses 1:03:42
and, like, there's nothing I can be interested in. It's like, there's nothing there's like, what's the point of being being here, like, there's nothing new here, there's nothing interesting. It's like, sometimes it isn't an energy, like, um, I don't think it can be really complete with words, but, you know, like, there's something that really is contrasting to my own style, my own, you know, my something contrasting to myself, yeah, where it's um, like, maybe like, uh, it could be like a no, maybe a softer kind of person. Maybe it could be someone who's like, um, kind of like, Oh my God. Like, there's angsty emu kind of vibe, but there's something that they made. It was like, Oh, I actually like this. Or like, maybe I don't know, like, um, you know, there's something weird or strange or something I don't know. Like, there's something I'm normal here at that, or maybe something that is striking that I'm really attracted to, or, yeah, yeah. And sometimes that kind of melts into like, you know, like it can like, like, there can be the level of branch, that sort of level of, you know, people that I like talking to, to, like, there's this kind of weird, you. So this kind of this, like internal fantastical idea where it's like friendships kind of melded to, like sexual interests, like there's like, oh my god, this is gonna sound really nice, but like this kind of way where, like, my internal idea of boundaries, or with these people kind of possibly blur. But I'm thinking like that, this is where I draw the line for now. But you know, the potential, the idea of it is like, maybe there's something there, because, you know, like, like, what the good doctor said, everything is sex, but, you know, yeah, well,
Josh Lavine 1:05:35
do you want to talk about your coming out story? It's speaking of that.
Moses 1:05:40
Yeah. Um, so my, oh, my God, I actually, could you remind me about that? And maybe five minutes or so, because I could, yeah, I was thinking about my experience internally. Like, Um, okay, like, again, like, I think of, like, like, I have, like, my own sexual fantasies, and I have my own like, in sexual, dry, primal thoughts and like, there's got to be, like, someone that I'm like, just like, magnetized to, or not like, there's got to be something that I've got to magnetize to. If there's nothing, if, if there's nothing that I can't have, then it's like I'm just dead. It's like, there's nothing but um, like, sometimes, like, it could be like, um, like, I find it in people. I find it in like, even in, like, certain concepts, like, even in uh, like, I'm not even sure this is part of the sexual ins. But even, like, the books I'm reading, like, um, like, I'm currently reading American Psycho, and I'm obsessed with that. And and there's a scene in ice white shot where, like, Tom Cruise goes to this mask ball, then they have the reverb reverse Latin chap chant. And there's a scene where the getting of the ritual starts. And I like, like, when watching that scene, it's like something in my it's like something in my stomach, or something in here, it's like, just rising up. It's like, Oh, my God. Like, God is like rising up through my soul. Just like, wow, I don't even know that's a sexual mistake. Maybe that's something else. But there's just something.
Josh Lavine 1:07:19
Something something is resonating inside. You're, it's, you're responding to
Moses 1:07:23
it, yeah, like, it's, it's like, I don't want to say it feels divine, because that sounds like spiritual, but it sounds, it's like, I am, like, made, like I'm, like, just made out of this, like, I'm just, it's like, it's like, I'm a part of this. Like, that's just, yeah, incredible. Like,
Josh Lavine 1:07:49
it's like a resonant frequency. It's just like, whatever this flavor thing is, it's like, that's me also, yeah, yes,
Moses 1:07:55
yeah, yeah. Like, even making collages was super fun, because it's like, I can like, like, I can make like these, kind of, like, dark, fantastical, like, more violent collages, and then switch to like these, kind of somewhat sought, like these. What's it not like bling pot or something like that. It's like these. Like, have you seen my collages? Like, I forgot what they're
Josh Lavine 1:08:19
called. I have not. No, I'd love to take a look, actually.
Moses 1:08:24
Oh yeah. Like, there's some where I've and I'm kind of ashamed of my cologne. They look pretty awful. But they're like, I can switch from, like, you know, a kind of over masculine element to a rather glitzy, peppy, uh feminine element where it's like, um, yeah, like, like, it's just something that I like, like, I even, um, like, I like, even in my music tastes like, I can switch from Death Grips to Madonna to Arica to St Vincent To Nine Inch Nails and a click. Like, it's like, this has been sick, and I don't, like, yeah, and to the coming out story, unless there's something else.
Josh Lavine 1:09:08
No, that was it. Okay. Okay,
Moses 1:09:13
so I did not want to come out because, like, well, for a while I thought of doing that, I was like, What's the point of it? Because I thought it's like, well, what, what is coming out do anyway? Like, what is telling your parents, your you know, your sexuality or your gender do in the first place? Like, even if, like, like, I didn't even like my parents. I didn't like, I kind of still love my mother, but I would not want to go on my way to go on my way to meet her at all. And I definitely do not like my father, like for like, of course I mentioned, like my upbringing, and like my father made me do martial arts for a long time, which I quit. And you. Martial arts is something I'm thinking of looking into back again, because I heard it's really good. And I'm like, Okay, fine, but I don't want to do it with I don't want to do it with my father. I don't want to do it near my father at all. I have pretty negative associations with him. And the other part is like, he like, there's kind of this rule in this house where, basically, I'm supposed to go to church, I supposed to attend Sunday school. And, like, I argue with him about, like, it's been many times at this point where I've like, he doesn't like the books that I buy. And, yeah, it's like, that's really interesting. Like, it's really odd, but, um, yeah, yeah. So like, why have a positive relationship to my parents isn't like, to me, it's like, there's kind of this. It's kind of like my family is just a collection of people that just live here. Like, I think my mother and father generally do love each other, but to everyone else, it's like, we would never like our souls, like, if, like, if you believe in Korea, if reincarnation is true, like, there's there our souls probably either made a mistake, or, maybe, um, there's, like, I don't know If maybe our souls actually didn't make a mistake, but nah, maybe our souls made a mistake, but we're basically this family is kind of a collection of people who don't seem to really want to be with each other, like, they like, of course, we have our own, like, own kind of culture. Like, we're not like, like, we're military family. We're not like, we're kind of an interesting collection, like an interesting chemistry of people, where it's like, you know, like, I have my over, like my very responsible kind of possibly Earth dominant sister, like my very conservative, kind of perfect daughter sister, I have my very, my very happy theater kid, 379 older brother. I have my youngest brother, who's really into martial arts, and my other siblings, yeah, yeah. Like, I didn't think it was a lot. I thought it's like, oh, people don't have this Yeah. But, and I have my other brother, which, yeah, kind of the antithesis, where it's like, he's kind of, like, weird and in his own interest, but he's like, um, like, he's got his own, like, he's on his like, own in a world he's like, a drummer and everything, and he's like, yeah, like, it's a, it's an eclectic group of people. Like, it's not a I know, like, it's kind of strange. Like, how families, you know, look exactly the same at each other, and it's kind of disturbing how like, similar that is, and how families actually seem to like each other. And like, even like, oh, there's something that's about what in dating or relationships. Like people think that like, there's like people, they date people, but like their brother or sister. It's like, kind of like, God, that's kind of disturbing, yeah. Like, I never experienced my family like that. It's like, yeah, like, we, like, there are times where we join each other's company, or it's like, yeah, we literally join each other's company. But in honestly, we don't, we wouldn't want to be around each other, and I certainly wouldn't want to be around my parents. But in terms of like, kind of Yeah, in terms
Josh Lavine 1:13:35
of coming out, though, I guess the the it seemed like the thread you were following there was, it was like, What's the point of this? Like, what would, what would be even the social function of doing this? Why would I? Why would I want to do it's, it's like, why would I make this bid to have a positive relationship for my parents to know me and or something like that?
Moses 1:13:57
Yeah, most of it like, I was like, I mean, before I came out to my parents, I was already out. I was already just like, I like, I could tell someone, like, not my parents maybe, like, I told, like, some people that, yeah, I'm queer. And just like, how old were you? But I was, it was, it was last year when I came out and, like, I came out to my parents, like I thought about, like, it's more of like, This is who I am. Deal with it. I'm gonna I am this way. I want to be this way. And, you know, I had the idea of, you know, being or involved in, like, maybe getting out there, or maybe, I don't know, like, this odd thing was like, okay, maybe I can find a community. Maybe I could find people there. Maybe there's something there, but I know that's like a zero possibility, because my parents work two jobs, and there's like obstacles everywhere. But basically it's like, This is who I am deal with, yeah, yeah. And my. I like, I've already been telling my parents, like, I don't like Ninja too. I don't like, I don't want to do this. I don't want to do that. And, yeah, like, this kind of, like, this unspoken agreement where it's like, like, my parents, like, my relationship to my parents is more of like, they provide transportation, money, shelter, and that's it done, but it's but so far, any kind of like, maybe they do, generally, likely, maybe they do like me, maybe like, like, I suppose they do, but to me, I am not particularly, you know, interested in having a relationship. With them, like, sure, once I leave the house, I'm, I have no interest in con i have no interest in contacting them anymore. Well, yeah.
Josh Lavine 1:15:55
Well, it sounds like, I mean, you're, you experience a fundamental incompatibility with whatever it is, values or way of being, or something like that. And I mean, it makes sense to me, like, in a way what you're saying, like, why? What would be the point of sharing of myself in a way that I'm opening myself to more of a connection based on what you're saying? But just want to make the point that it is, it is fascinating to talk to hear, you know, a hex head type in their coming out story, versus talk to attachment types, and they're coming out stories because typically, attachment types struggle a lot more with exposing themselves and revealing themselves in their particularity. And am I going to be accepted for this? Whereas you're like, I don't even care if you accept me for this or not. For this or not. This is just who I am. Yeah. So I, I,
Moses 1:16:46
I was already, like, before I came out, I was like, just closing the door. Like I, I basically just, like, I was ready to, like, close the door for any positive connection whatsoever. Like, I was, like, shutting the door sound. Like, no, that's not gonna happen. I don't, like, I'm done, yeah? And I know this, like, a, I know this is not going to be accepted. And B, it's like, well, like, what's the point of, like, being with my parents in the first place? Like, even if something works, like, what's the point? Like, I can't even go back, yeah? So it's like, just shutting down already. Like, I was, yeah,
Josh Lavine 1:17:22
I have a I have a couple of other questions, and then, and then, maybe we'll come to a close soon. But I'm thinking about you mentioned that you have found some friends. So post the period of depression, you have now found some friends. And you really like your friends. You have good relationships. And I'm wondering kind of what happened. What was the journey there to finding them and discovering you guys actually had real social chemistry. And I'm wondering also about, in the same vein, you mentioned in your typing video that you often get into social trouble because people tone police you, and you hate being tone policed, and people sometimes find you obnoxious and impolite and stuff, and you don't care about those kinds of social conventions, and you're fine with that, all that kind of stuff. But also you said that you're learning to shut up in certain situations when it feels appropriate or beneficial in some way. And so I'm wondering about is that a form of adaptation that you're growing into? Is it a just a more kind of neutral this is it's just more useful for me to shut up right now so I can get through this interaction? Is it serving you in your new relationships?
Moses 1:18:35
Yeah, my form of shutting up was like, um, it's basically sensing that, okay, fine, I don't have like, I used to think that I could do whatever I want, like I was well, in what I mean by like, you know, like, I didn't realize that people would attempt to not just ruin you, but people will, like, getting into getting into arguments, or Getting it to, I see, okay, getting like, like, just, like, even arguments with adults, or like, just, yeah, yeah, telling an adult that's wrong, that doesn't make sense, that's stupid, here's why. And they get really sensitive about it, and I'm like, what, yeah. And to me, yeah. And to me, it's like, it's like, they have this, like, this saying, Well, I'm an adult. You respect me in this way. And I'm like, well, seriously, like, to me, like, it doesn't make any difference. Like, you know, like, I there are a bunch of teenagers who have just as stupid ideas that some adults do, and they're adults who, incredibly, I think, are much more of an elder than, say, who are just as much of an kind of an elder, or maybe kind of more mature, or actually do make quite a lot of sense, as you know, someone younger, like, I don't care about, you know, 1728, versus a 40 year old, 60 year old. And this kind of, like odd core. Correlation, like, this odd correlation, that age, with some wisdom comes with age. And, yeah, like, it's like, shutting up is a way for it's like, I don't, like, I'm gonna try not to get into, get into trouble as much as possible. And sometimes, like, even speaking out, like, even, like, even my arguments about my father. Sometimes I think, what the hell did I even say this for? Like, it's not even getting anywhere, sure my father's not going to change my mind. Like I used to think that my father would just change his mind, but, you know, that depends. So
Josh Lavine 1:20:31
just recognizing the utility to you, of of of not getting combative, or something like that, not getting to make the point. Yeah.
Moses 1:20:41
Yeah. Yeah. Like, sometimes like, like, you will like, there are times where I will need to get like, I think I will definitely need to get combative if it is necessary, like, if, like, if there's something wrong, or if there's like, a deadline about to be missed, or maybe if someone has like, a problem or otherwise, that there's an issue that I'm thinking about, and like, Okay, well, what's this? Yeah, yeah. Like, what is this about? Let's talk about, let's hash them out before this gets it to a much worse problem, where it's, like, that's not a big deal. We'll do it later. Nine. Yeah, together, sorry, but, but, yeah. Like, sometimes they're just things where, you know, it's not even worth talking about because it doesn't get anywhere. And
Josh Lavine 1:21:26
are your are your friends that you've made the kinds of people that you don't need to shut up around.
Moses 1:21:34
Yeah? These are, these are the people that tolerate me. These are, like, I could just like, you know, like, I can, like, talk to someone about, like, say, a book I'm reading or a movie I'm interested in, or maybe my views on sexuality, pornography, or like interests and whatever or my mind is going in, they don't like, they're not overly sensitive or reacted to it like they're not like, it's weird or that's wrong, or they just get all like, prissy and disgusted about it, where it's and to me, like, I get a sense, like, I get the feeling that with other people, they just don't take it too seriously, where it's like, I like, I read this book, like, out of entertainment, and it's like, yeah, like, this is fun, but also this is seriously the same time. Like, I really, really, generally, seriously like it, and I'm seriously having fun with it, and people just don't really like my assumption is that people are just generally uneducated, or otherwise, people just don't, aren't open enough to just kind of, um, learning about it or really being interested yeah, or, like, flinch
Josh Lavine 1:22:47
away from things that are uncomfortable or disgusting or things like that that find that you find yourself fascinated with,
Moses 1:22:56
yeah. And another part is, like, sometimes they will kind of like, joke about it, and then, like, move on to a whole different subject,
Josh Lavine 1:23:01
right, right? Okay, I don't know. It's the shit out of me too, actually, as a fellow social self, yeah, no, I know what you mean.
Moses 1:23:10
It's like, it's kind of like zarathusia, like speaking to the masses, and the masses just don't understand it. It's like, what the hell is going on? Yeah?
Josh Lavine 1:23:23
I have one, one more question for you, which is, how, how do you hold being on the autism spectrum and being a five separately or together, and how do they intermingle
Moses 1:23:38
for you? So I think autism is a part of me, like, I can't, um, I think that's just how my mind works. That's maybe, maybe what, how my mind works, like, kind of mingles with personality in some way, but, and like, with habits and patterns, etc, yeah, yeah. Like, um, I can't imagine not having autism. Or at least, like, you know, um, like, that's just how the mind works. Like, I don't even want to call it autism at this point. It's like, that's just me. That's just my mind works. I don't care. I see, okay, yeah, that's like, I think it is like a literal like, it is a disorder. Like, maybe it is like a a disorder where it's like, yeah, there is a socially handicapped way. And like, I'm, like, really socially handicapped, and I have these obsessive fixations. And like, even my interest in animals, like I like, I don't even remember anything else, much else about my childhood except animals. Animals, animals. And not the same people, but animals. Sometimes, when hearing other people like in and this conversation is, I think, an exception where other like, other like, when talking with other people like, I will need to, like, hear what they said again, because, like, sometimes I'm really sometimes, I think of a really terrible hearer. And. And like, I'm really, like, I'm really a terrible here. Like, sometimes people will say something, and to me, what I'm hearing are like, mumbles, or people are talking too fast, or they're going somewhere where it's like, I need to hear that again. I don't understand it. And like, there's so many ways where some people will say one thing and I'm like, Oh, they mean this, and I'll follow through with that tangent or something. And I realized that 10 minutes later they were talking about something else, other people who are on the spectrum. Who are, I think, who are definitely other types that like first of all when David Gray, and this is where I did a shout out, David Gray, the magical genie. Grin in my wish, giving my super secret blessing, as in sending my typing information without my consent. Warn me, this is a warning. David, Okay, help me next time where like type five is described as pseudo autistic. And I'm like, yeah, like, that's kind of true. Like, it's like, I kind of like, like, there's this idea, like, understanding what five is. And it's like, yeah, that is kind of pseudo autistic. Like, it is yeah, brain where it's like, not not body oriented, not like out of touch with the body, out of touch with the heart, and, you know, kind of like this basically brittle, unfunctional sort of being, which, in a way, that kind of is, I wouldn't like that kind of is what part of what autism is, but what does that mean? It's like, if it's not fun, it's like, I think to me, like having autism is partially like, you know, kind of being finding a way where it's like, you're not able to, like, really read people or under understand certain contexts, or like, there's like, even having obsessions and fixations and kind of like your mind going this way, and like, there's something very different with it. Yeah, and, and going back to where other people with autism is, like, they've like, I know plenty of people with autism who are really, really in tune with the collective like, they're really interested in other people. Like, they're, they're incredibly open to it. Like, much more open than I am, like, I and like, much more into to, like, the collective words, like, we're all to the same boat, or like, um, like, socializing, or based off of demographics, or based off of like, oh, there are other people like me, and I don't have that kind of mentality at all, where it's like, um, like, even, like the god, like even, like the generic, like the Autism Speaks, or like those, like pop psychology programs where, like, I'm Talking about autism, where it's like, Autism Awareness Month, and this kind of like being so, like, it's okay to be special and unique. And I found it completely unattractive. I really, I found it completely unattractive. And I was like, irked at it. I just cringe at it because I thought it was like, um, I thought it was first of all cheesy, like, like those, like, like those ridiculous, like, self motivation, like those, like others motivating, uh, posts or like those messages. To me, it's like, well, I know myself. I know like, I know what I want to do. Like, you don't have to tell me that, yeah, because it's kind of like
Josh Lavine 1:28:40
implying, implying that you need to be lifted up in some way, or that you're it's implying that you're thinking of yourself in some lesser way, so you need to or so it's okay to
Moses 1:28:50
be different, or whatever. It's kind of like also putting your, it's kind of like at this like almost putting your power over other people, to other people, and like, my like, kind of my criticism of feminism, where it's like other women, like, there's solidarity in the end of collective and I think there is, but it also is with the it like it's not just about collectivism. It's also having faith in the individualism individual, and having an incredible strong sense of the of the self, and really strong pride in itself too, where it's not even narcissistic or, like, delusional, but there's a strong pride in the strong, genuine pride in itself, yeah. And like, you know, like, I think that's a true feminism. Like, it's not even just like, um, like, it to me, it's like, not just, you know, like, like, I'm proud to be autistic, like, it's, I'm proud to be me. Like, I'm not, you know, just proud to be a gay man. I'm proud. I'm not just proud to be, you know, all these other demographics. I'm proud to be me. Like, it's, it's me, like, it's like, it's beyond um. These basic demographics, like, just beyond being on the spectrum, beyond being queer, beyond, yeah, like, even my skin color, like, I don't feel like I have, like, kind of adopted a culture. Like, this is, like, this cool, like, I've kind of like, created my own culture, and this is for me and me alone. And, yeah, anybody else who wants to join in. Like, sure, go ahead. But this is not for like, this is my this is my flavor. Like, this is my thing that's separate from these boxes,
Josh Lavine 1:30:33
yeah? Well, that feels like a really good and triumphant notes to end on cool, yeah, okay, yeah, thanks. Well, thank you so much. No, no, that's it. No, I thank you so much for doing this. I really appreciate it. And yeah, this has been a delightful conversation to have. So thanks a lot. Thank you. Thank you so much for tuning into this conversation with Moses, if you liked this conversation, then please click like or hit subscribe if you're on YouTube or if you're listening to this as a podcast, then you can leave up to a five star review and also leave some comments if you're on app or Spotify. Those are free and very effective ways to support me and the work that we do here at The Enneagram School. And if you're curious to learn more about what we do at The Enneagram School, then I would love for you to come check us out at our website. We have free resources to learn the Enneagram, for example, a lot of written content on the website, as well as more conversations that you can browse by type and also by instinctual stacking. On our website, there's a tab says interviews. You can go check it out there. And also, I invite you to subscribe to our email list, which is where we'll send notifications. For example, if we have upcoming retreats or classes or also, we'll drop conversations just like this. We'll let you know when they're coming out. I also want to plug our intro course, which is a great resource for beginners to ramp up quickly, and it's also a great resource for advanced students to go back to the basics and see how all of the disparate concepts of the Enneagram weave together in seal coherent tapestry. So one more thing, if you think that you would be a good candidate for me to interview on the show, then I would love to hear from you. You can contact me directly through The Enneagram School website. Just go to the contact form and then fill it out. Preference goes to people who have been officially typed by the typing team at Enneagram so enneagrammer, in my view, is the world's most accurate and precise Enneagram typing service. You can check out their typing [email protected] Okay, that's it for me. Thank you very much, and I will see you next time you.
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