Kim Jansen 0:00
And like, there's a lot of what I don't think is really touched on, and a lot of talk about a is like, yes, there is anger at the other person, but I what I feel like is missing a lot of time. There is so much self hatred involved in that too. There's so much anger at the self. There's so much blame toward the self, where it's like, yeah, I can blame you all you want. I get angry at you all you want that you hurt me at the end of the day, I'm the one to let you in. I'm the one at the gate. I am the gatekeeper. That's the thing with eight is I'm the arbiter of existence. Welcome
Josh Lavine 0:30
to another episode of what it's like to be you. I'm Josh Lavine, your host, and on this show, I interview accurately typed guests about their experience as their Enneagram type today. My guest is Kim Jansen, who is a 26 year old social self, Pres eight wing seven, with 863, trifix. And this conversation absolutely blew me away. Kim is incredibly articulate about her inner experience as an eight wing seven, Precociously so as a 26 year old. And she just is so full of life, so much energy, just pouring out of her all the time. And I just found her a delight to talk to. And we get into all the classic eight themes that you would expect, setting boundaries, relationship to rage and anger, what it means to abide in an emotional experience that is sort of pre numbed to the world, which Kim has very good language for cutting off, etc. And we also get into some lesser explored territory, around eight self judgments for naivete, as well as some of this stuff around eight line to two and eight line to five. So really good stuff in this interview. The interview really speaks for itself, in my view. So I'm gonna leave this intro short. And meanwhile, if you would like to learn more about the Enneagram, then I recommend you go to the Enneagram school.com you can check out all of our free resources, including all the links to previous interviews that we've done right there on the website, as well. As you can check out our intro course, which is the kind of one stop shop where I recommend you go to learn what makes the Enneagram, the Enneagram, and all the intro how all the introductory concepts flow together. So that's that at the Enneagram school.com, and without further ado, here is Kim. I have to tell you, I feel like the way this interview is going to go is I'm going to, I do have a plan, yes, but I feel like I'm going to start and then, and then the Kim train is going to leave the station, and I'm just going to be, I'm just going to be on the ride. I'm gonna do my best to ask the questions that I have planned. Yeah, we'll see where this goes. Well, okay, so, so I do want to start by just saying, and we mentioned this before, your eight wing sevenness is well documented, yes, in public space, because you sent a one hour typing video to enneagrammer, which then you also volunteer to have them do a public analysis of which is amazing. And I'll put the link in the show notes, and so you can go check that out. But yeah, so hello, eight, wing seven, and your energy is just sort of, it's like, boom, obvious. Yeah, here it is. And there's a lot of it. Maybe I'll just start with, how are you feeling right now? I feel great.
Kim Jansen 3:01
I feel ready to just, like, grab you and just take you wherever I am going energetically, like, it feels like, you know, the scene The Polar Express, where they're like, driving down the slope of the mountain, and there's, like, no tracks, and there's really, like, yeah, it feels very much like that, where it's like, you're just, right, this is my I'm the one driving the train. Everybody else is just along for the ride and praying they don't fall off like that.
Josh Lavine 3:26
Yeah. Okay, if that makes sense, yeah. So I want to start with some social context, yeah, just that you are, are you currently in school studying to be a forensic what? What is it that you're studying?
Kim Jansen 3:40
Okay, so I'm currently occurring, studying data science and chemistry with a forensic track. Um, I had several different ideas as to what I want to do with that. I'm not entirely sure where I'm going with that yet, but all I want to know is I want to be, like, physically working on solving crimes. I don't know whether that's going to be a detective. I don't know if I'm going to be in the lab. I don't know if I'm going to be like, a forensic pathologist or, like, where I work with dead people all day. Like, I don't know what it is I'm doing. All I know is I generally know the area I want to go in, but I'm not sure what specifics I want to do yet. I just feel like, but I've always really been like that. Like, I was that person that wanted to have like, 30 different jobs at once. I was that kid that, like, every time there was a story, like, we had to write a story about what our about ourselves, and then, like, stay at our job. My job would change all the time. Like, I would go from like things like firefighter or like police officer, or like a nurse a veterinarian, and then I'd have pretty realistic jobs, such as being a rock star astronaut who resides on the moon. So, like, there's like, trying to figure out, like, schooling and career has always been like, No, this seems interesting. No, this seems interesting. No, this seems interesting. Or it's like, I have a very hard time locking myself down.
Josh Lavine 4:59
Uh huh, yeah. Yeah. And I guess you said before that it's kind of like something, anytime something interesting or exciting enters your field of awareness, you're chasing after it. Yes, yes.
Kim Jansen 5:10
Like, I was literally having a conversation with a few of my friends last night because I'm planning on, like, meeting up with people, um, end of March. And they're like, oh, like, in your end of March, I'm like, oh, like, by the way, like, when you go out with Kim, she's fun. She's She's a blast. The problem is, if, when we if you go out somewhere, if there's something interesting, keep her on it. Like the joke, like the joke is like, keep her on a childish like, you're going to lose her. So it's like, for example, let's say like you and I and a few other people are on a bar. If I see something interesting, if I hear a commotion, if I see karaoke, if I see somebody dancing on the table, if I hear something going on, I'm running to wherever is generating the most amount of positive space. So I'm like, you're gone, you're in the dust already. I'm dancing on the table, nearly about to get kicked out. Like that's or I'm on stage singing with a stranger, and then suddenly we're best friends, like it's, it's that kind of energy, like I had jokes with, like, a few people that I went to college with a few years ago because my I took a semester off and then completely changed my major. Like, that kind of happened. And like, the joke would always be like, Oh, how many friends is Kim gonna make tonight? Or, like, literally, like, I met a group of people knew them for almost an hour next week. We went out for someone's birthday who I hadn't met yet. Like, like, that sort of thing. Or it's like, I'm sitting on a bus, but like, I get, like, it's just fun. Like, like, not knowing who you're going to run into, what you're going to do, what to expect, like, that stuff's a lot of fun. And I have a tendency to intentionally or not suck, suck you up and grab you in there with me. Like, no, no. If you're with me, you're along to the ride, whether you ask to be a part of it or not. Like, that's just, do
Josh Lavine 6:41
you ever get tired? No,
Kim Jansen 6:45
um, just very bluntly, no, um, I have to live one place, go to school in another, work a job in a third drive like 30 minutes to my job, 30 minutes back from my job, four to five times a week just to I have to physically exhaust myself to just get tired. I if I'm currently doing something that's exciting to me, my sleep levels, my appetite completely shuts off, and I get so involved with what I'm doing. Like, if I'm working on a Lego, you bet I'm not stopping until I either finish. Like, either, like, the whole thing, if it's small enough, or I finish the booklet, or I feel myself physically about to, like, slam my head into the table, and I'm like, I like, even as a kid in the car, I never napped in the car. I was always reading a book. I was listening to the same Sesame Street song about spaghetti and meatballs all the time. I was pointing out things outside the car. I only ever really sleep in, like, I can't sleep in trains, I can't sleep in cars, can't sleep and everything like that. So it's like, unless my body physically feels like it's about to shut down, yeah, when I shut down, then I sleep. But it's like, I still it's like I have to, I has to be energetically forced in some type of way, or else, it's just like, I have to, like, move myself into exhaustion, essentially.
Josh Lavine 8:07
That is amazing, and it's kind of interesting as a so you so eight, wing seven, right? It's like aliveness, plus the kind of chaos and effervescence of the seven wing, and also six, wing seven secondary, which has a certain quality of alertness to it. So it's like, it's like, I'm ready for action. It's basically that, that eight wing, seven, six wing, seven kind of STEM. Yes, that sense
Kim Jansen 8:31
dominant stem. So it's like you're doubling up on reactivity both having a seven wing. So you're doubling up on that assertive First Nation. So it feels like I have a pseudo seven fix. I don't have a Yeah, but it makes sense being eight with a six fix, both having seven wings, because I have a lot of that. Yeah, yes, sir. Jokey fun, entertainment, frustration, sort of machine of like, yeah, no, I very much have a lot of that energy. And you see it,
Josh Lavine 8:59
you know, you're, you're, you're describing how literal exhaustion has to overtake you. Yes, because the it's like the absolute value, or the magnitude of your level of tiredness has to reach, has to breach a certain threshold before you even notice it. Yes,
Kim Jansen 9:21
other people noticed it quicker than I do. Like, I physically have worked, like, pushed myself energetically to the point that I've vomited several times, like, this point where I work myself to exhaustion, or I've done one thing after another after another, and my body's just been exhausted. Like, yeah, no, it was, yeah, it was bad. But it's like, actually, because I've been processing our interview before we even, like, started, because I was thinking, started, because I was thinking about topics and I was imagining you and I having a conversation in our head, just because I need to, like, I'm like, Oh, what if I say this or maybe bring this up, and I need to bring this up. But something I've been processing that I don't think a lot of people understand about me is I'm not a law of nature. I'm a force of it. Like that. Feels like, yeah, so.
Josh Lavine 10:00
Right? I am a force. You're not a law of nature. You're the you're a force of nature, correct?
Kim Jansen 10:04
I'm force of nature, not a law of nature. I don't abide by your rules. I go where I want to go. I exert myself how I want you.
Josh Lavine 10:12
Don't listen to nature. Nature listens to you. Yes, yeah. So what's let's see how to put this the what's really striking for me about this whole exhaustion thing, and you also mentioned this in, I forget one of your materials that you kind of sent over, but this idea of like, when you reflect on a situation, you can tell me what happened, but not necessarily how you were feeling, because, in a way, you're kind of not registering your, I don't know, emotional state, or I'm actually even going to say it as a somatic thing, because it feels like, let's see. The point I'm building to is how we think about dissociation, often in the context of nine, but actually eight is dissociating as well, dissociating into action and not in touch with its whatever sense of sensitivity, or feelings of exhaustion or whatever, until those feelings breach through, they actually get, they get they're strong enough that they get your attention correct. So there's like a kind of numbness underlying this tornado of activity. Yeah, yeah. So I just, do you have words about that? Or how do you Yeah,
Kim Jansen 11:25
it's a preemptive numbness. And I really like the distinction that both eight and nine are dissociating, but the ways in which they dissociate very different. Like, I yeah, I never clocked it as dissociation, just because I'm like, What do you mean? Like, I'm present. But I remember talking to like, I remember talking to someone who was in who's who's a nine and like, they described it as, like, no, no. Like, you and I associate like, not the word, term, exact, term dissociation, but the way they describe it is like, sometimes I'm not present, but they're like, you're physically cut off. It's like, I don't know he's like, I felt like, at times you've been physically cut off from spaces, and I'm like, what, like, like, What do you mean? Because I'm like, wait shit. Like, that's how I'm coming off. Like, like, like, Oh crap. Other people can see it. And it's also this like, preemptive numbing thing, of like, I can't get affected because I know what's going to happen to me when I get affected, and I'm just, I'm going to be taken by this thing, and it's like, I can't let that happen, because I know I'm going to lose myself in it. That's what kind of going on subconsciously in my mind. Is like, like, I didn't realize it was preemptive numbing. I didn't realize it was numbing. Um, was really interesting growing up, like, dealing with like, like, anything a positive or negative and just seeing like, Oh yeah, I'm going to numb myself to experience like, even positive or negative words. Like, I'm going to numb myself up to the out to the possibility of me even being exhausted, just because I want to amplify how much rumor having. It's the same thing on the flip, where it's I am creatively numbing how hurt I could get. Just so nothing can affect me, because I know if I get affected, I'm just going to be completely taken by it. And so, like, like, growing up in a household where it's, like, the only other eight in my family is my grandmother, which, like, she's, she's, but like, growing up in a household that didn't have any or a lot of eight energies, like my sister, I think was either a three or a nine, and like, the way that we dealt with conflict very different. And so at times, she'd be frustrated, and I didn't find this out till years later, she's like, I originally didn't think I was getting frustrated because I it just seemed like nothing bothered you. It just seemed like nothing touched you. It just seemed like nothing affected you. And so I was frustrated. How can I be feeling so much pain, and you're just like, rolling with the punch, but it's like, no, I am feeling that pain. I'm feeling that pain by numbing myself to the idea of experiencing it beforehand, because I know I would lose myself in it if I felt even an ounce.
Josh Lavine 13:57
Yeah. Uh, that was very, really well articulated. And I think the, yeah, this the preemptive numbing thing of eight is really kind of key to understand, I think. And you actually, I want to bring in something else you said too about you feel like a the rejection, I think, is you feel like a starfish that can't regenerate limbs, yes. And so this idea of cutting off or numbing cutting how do you how do you see it in yourself? Are you numbing? Are you cutting off? What is it that you're cutting off?
Kim Jansen 14:31
I think both. Um, so it's like, I, I was reading on your website, like the school and whatnot, about, like, I think it's like, you were using it with about sponges, about the object relations as sponges, of like, attachment sponges. And I was thinking of, like, I don't know if sponge is the right word for rejection, but I thought of starfish, how when you cut something off, you regenerate a limit. It's like, with me, it's like, I feel like, once that limb is gone, that's it, kaput. And so it's like, it's like, I. Like, a lot of people die with five like, you, you're gonna die with five limbs. I am born with five limbs. I'm not gonna die with five. Like, I'm not like, when I lose a limb, it's like, Why? Why? Can't this grow? But nope, I lost an arm. Okay, um, and so it's like, I feel like, the cutting off halfway. What
Josh Lavine 15:16
is the limb? Sorry, just limb. This idea of limb, like, what is, because we're not obviously talking about a physical limb. You're talking about what an emotional piece of you, or what is,
Kim Jansen 15:26
what is emotional, mental? Um, it means like a part of myself. It means it, it means a part of my soul. So if I trust you enough with something very integral to me, if I trust you with the with my it's like a limb I equate with my vulnerability. If I bear my soul to you, and I find out I never should have given it to you in the first place, it's much easier for me to just cut that tie off. And like, there's a lot of what I don't think is really touched on, and a lot of talk about eight is like, yes, there is anger at the other person, but I what I feel like is missing a lot of time. There is so much self hatred involved in that too. There's so much anger at the self. There's so much blame toward the self, where it's like, yeah, I can blame you all you want. I can get angry at you all you want, that you hurt me at the end of the day, I'm the one that let you in. I'm the one at the gate. I am the gatekeeper. That's the thing with eight, is I'm the arbiter of existence. So if I decide you can exist in my world and you hurt me, then clearly I didn't check you enough. And so there's a lot of self blame that I think gets I don't know. I don't know if it's rug swept. I don't know if it's not talked about, but there's a lot of self blame that I think is left out, and a lot of eight literature where there's so much self beating up, because it's like, I you, I was, you were, I was vulnerable with you. You hurt me, so in a sense that I kind of deserve this now, because I should have checked you more.
Josh Lavine 17:00
I love this point you're bringing up. And it's actually a theme that I've seen with a lot of eights where they if, yeah, if they get hurt, or something like that, they, I don't know. I can't say it any better than you just said it, but it's the sense of, it's like, the responsibility and the power is with me, yes. And so it's, it was my lapse of judgment, yes, just that I didn't understand who you were, yes, you know, like I let you in and, and, and I judge you to be the kind of person with whom I would feel safe, correct? And then you proved me wrong, yes, but rather than, it's kind of like, Oh, I didn't see you accurately, right? Or something like that. I didn't assess, I didn't size you up in the right way, right? You know, yeah, I didn't assess your threat potential in the right
Kim Jansen 17:51
way. Yes, yeah. So then it's like, you then start not if it goes beyond our trusting other people, you start distrusting yourself, especially when it be when it becomes a reoccurring pattern, you're now fighting your own ego all the time.
Josh Lavine 18:06
So then what I mean? I guess I could see how this gets over, or let's see how to put I could see how this becomes a state of hyper vigilance. Yes, that's ever present, especially with the secondary six fix. But no matter what, just the eight, yeah, just the eight thing of this vigilance of who, who am I letting in, or who, what are the potential threats out there? Yes, what could hurt me? Yes, yeah, very
Kim Jansen 18:37
much. So, very much. So where it's like, if I were to describe my environment as a house. You're either in the house or you're not. There's no, you're creeping up the front door. There's no, you're the gardener. There is no, you're polishing my Windows outside. No, you're either in or you're out. It's that simple. And for me it's like, like, alright, you can, you can go in. Have fun. Have a party. Be fun. Be super it's fun. I don't block out any rooms of the house. At least for me, it's like, don't like, it's not even a sense of, don't go in the basement. I'm like, I know, because when I let you in, it's like, you see every part of me. I don't hide who I am, even for people that I don't let in all the ways, like, I don't hide who I am. Like, I show you, I think. But I think that makes a lot of people. It's something a lot of people admire, but I think it's something that makes a lot of people uncomfortable, is I let you know who I am out the gate. I have nothing to hide off the bat. Like, I remember processing some of this with, like, some of my friends, and I'm like, oh yeah. Like, I let you know who I am and what I'm about, because I don't want you to waste your time on me if I'm not your cup of tea, which it's fine. I'm not going to be everyone's cup of tea. I accept that, but don't judge other people for either drinking me or don't judge or don't judge until you'd have a sick if you don't like it after you have it sit, that's fine. But don't say I don't say I don't taste right. Not drink it at least, at least try me before you don't like it. I.
Josh Lavine 20:00
Okay, yeah, where do I want to go with that?
Unknown Speaker 20:07
My plan is working beautifully.
Josh Lavine 20:11
Your plan to dismantle my plan. Okay? On that point about showing you who I am up front. Yes. You know that's a hexad perspective. And hexad type, social. Hexad type, living in an attachment world, yes, for the most part, yep. What's that been like for you? I guess, to realize the the way that you do it, the way that you do relationships, where you just kind of bluntly with full force, show your flavor, your forcefulness, your exuberance, like you see what you get, that's your style, and then noticing that other people are sort of the opposite, where they sort of, it's like the hex, that thing where you sorry, give me a second. Let me say that again. It's like most attachment people are trying to hook into and establish a relationship before they, quote, unquote, really show you who they are, their preferences or their flavor or whatever. Yes. And so what's that like for you? God,
Kim Jansen 21:21
um, so like the way that I kind of I feel like I can articulate a bit better now, because it's not my I'm going to say I'm completely attached and blind because I do attachment fixes, but I'm double hex head on core, and so it feels like I'm in a space where I can understand the language enough to hear it and understand what you're saying. I can't speak a word you're saying. I can't speak what you're saying, but I can hear can hear you. And that's what it feels like for me being double hexad with two attachment fixes. It's I can I understand. I can understand what you're saying. I exist with you. I can't ever speak the way that you do. And it also for me, the another analogy that I like to give is I feel like a broken thermostat, where, if other everyone else is 68 it's like, okay, 68 and I'm trying to crank down the dial. I'm bleeding 82 I'm like, I've told you I'm moving this thing. Nope, stay in 82 because I don't internally, want to go down. But, um, it's what's really funny. I did not realize how different and jarring I came off until a couple years ago. I was going through the world thinking everybody was like me. Everybody did things the way that I did. Everybody was chasing people around, playing tag. Everybody was slamming bus seats down in order to befriend people. Everybody was aggressively going after what they wanted. Everybody was living unapologetically. And I was constantly getting frustrated being like, if people did things like I did then, like, things would be more efficient. Things would get done quicker. If people were like me, then this would happen. If, like, I would just remember feeling constantly frustrated and being like, oh, everybody's like me, everyone's like, and it's like, no. So it's like, now it just feels really like, Ah, shit. I can't play this game like you can play which it feels kind of embarrassing at times. This is like, you can play my game, I can't play yours, and it's like, but I let people know that up front it honestly, it's kind of hard just because it's like, I don't like, because I remember hearing this from other people, but it's also realizing for myself, is like, I don't feel like I love the way that most people love where it's like, I let you know out the gate, this is who I am, is what I'm about. And it's like, realizing that a lot of people aren't like, that has been kind of disarming,
Josh Lavine 23:29
yeah? Like, I'm not disorienting, yes,
Kim Jansen 23:33
because it's like, yeah, what do you mean? You're not going to show this real. What do you mean? You're not going to show that yet. What do you mean? Because it's like, I don't care if it's ugly. I want raw and I want real. I don't care if it if it's ugly, we'll deal with it later. Like, I don't care, or like, I remember, like, dating somebody who was kind of paranoid. I'm like, I don't care. I'm like, Well, if you're paranoid about me, and they're like, No, I'm like, then why would I give a if you know I trust you and you trust me, I don't care what you have. I need to know you're loyal to me. You're loyal to me. I can do with anything like, it's like, like, I left because that's like, I don't want to waste your time because I don't want you, because I treat people like their investments, and so I don't want you to invest in me. If you don't want me off the gate, if because I because I'm not going to waste my time on a second or third date, if I know I don't want you, and you know you don't want me, I don't want to dance like that. That's not my type. But that's not you're trying to do the waltz. I'm trying to do the flamenco. A lot of people don't know how to do the flamenco.
Josh Lavine 24:36
Yeah. What's the game? When you talk about the game I can't play, you can play my game, but I can't play your game,
Kim Jansen 24:48
like the slow unraveling. I think, I think that's what I'm trying to say, because I'm I've noticed that my interaction socially, whether it's romantic, platonic, Fauci. They'll they burn fast. They burn bright. It's a shooting star. It's there, and then it's gone. Like I don't do the slow, like I don't do it slow. I don't do okay, here's a build up and a crescendo to my character. No, literally, there's stories of me as a kid walking in Sunday school, 30 other kids not knowing anyone. Hi, my name is Kimberly? Nice to meet all you. Bam, immediately I met my best friend. This is a true story. First day of kindergarten, sitting on the bus several stops for her. Girl coconut hair walks in, I start slamming down the bus seat, screaming at her to sit with me. We're still best friends, but, like, that's the kind of again. I was like, Here, sit with me. I've got you. Like,
Josh Lavine 25:42
yeah, that's so you told me that story before, and there's something so, like, sweet, and so you're the virtue of the eight is innocence. And it's that's really coming through to me in that story. It's like the sense of right here, right now, like, I want to do this, yeah, and your whole life force gets marshaled towards that thing. And there's no apology, there's no stutter step, there's no second guessing. It's just like, I want to do this. I want you to sit with me right now, yeah, and just so I understand, like, this was first day kindergarten. You'd never met, yeah, never met any of these kids before, right? And you're sitting on a bus, yeah? And you just spot you don't even what was it about that person that you don't know? I
Kim Jansen 26:26
can't tell you. She ended up being in my class and they didn't even know it. There's just, I don't know what it was. She just came on and I, I think I don't know if it was most of the busies were taken up, and I don't know if she didn't have anywhere to sit. I don't know if there's a recognition of, okay, I want, I don't know if it was I want to know you, I want to get to know you, or I saw something myself and you like, I don't know what it was. There's just something that just was, like, I need you to I don't know what it is. I need you to sit with me. And I think it's really great that you touched upon, like, the like, the virtue of the innocence. And I'd also doubled down on, say, it's also naive, like I had this night, okay, about me, where it's I'm walking in and assuming that everybody else is also doing this, or I'm kind of naive about, like, my own, like, I'm trying to put it into words, because it just kind of hit me and like, sometimes I struggle to articulate myself at the moment, but there's this naivety about, like, oh well, every like, everyone's going to be this upfront and authentic and honest and raw, And it's like, well, everyone's going to walk like, everyone slams the bus seat down in order to, well, everyone expresses their emotions by doing this sort of like, this visceral sort of thing. And it's like, no, you're naive to think there's only one type of person. Like people are like, people aren't as like, and I don't mean this in a negative way, but like, people aren't in this aren't as much of a one trick pony as you are in terms of, like, I don't really vary or filter myself, or like, change like, I'm not, because this is something that I've noticed with, like, a lot of people in my life, it's like they're one way around one crowd, one way around another. No, I'm this way with you, that way with you, this way with you. It's like it's there's no variation with how I am depending on who I'm around. There's no kind of there's no filtration system. Yeah, the filter broke.
Josh Lavine 28:11
You know, it's funny this, or actually it's, I think it's really profound what you're saying this naivete, because it relates back to the self judgment thing that you're talking about. It's like when you when you realize that you misjudged someone and they hurt you, that that harks back to that naivete, yes, where you're like, almost judging yourself for your naivete, like I didn't see that threat. Yeah, you know, I assumed something better intent, or something like
Kim Jansen 28:37
that. It's like, if I'm all the way in on something, I'm all the way in, there's no and I guess there's not out. There's no one foot in, one foot out, no. It's two feet in, or there's two feet out. That's just, that's how I am. You know when I'm there, you know when I'm not? There's no kind of waffle. There's no waffle. It's
Josh Lavine 28:56
kind of, it's kind of hitting me in the moment is seeing I have no eight in me. So it's like just seeing the world through that point of view, kind of like summoning myself to inhabit that perspective for a second. It's like imagine just being so full on, boldly in uncautiously myself and assuming or projecting that everyone else is doing the same thing. Everyone else is like me, yes, but then discovering that people are hiding themselves in some way, in I don't like I don't hide myself as an eight, yes And so, but then, actually, maybe this is where the eight line to five starts come in, because it's like, oh, like, I realized that I maybe I do actually have to start being cautious. And so this, yeah, yeah. That's
Kim Jansen 29:48
just Yeah. In terms of, like, the three centers, like, in terms of like, image head and gut, like, the gut center is kind of fucked in the sense of object relations, because it can never escape its object relation. Like, ones always have lines of frustration. Action. Nines always have lines to attachment. Eights always have lines to rejection. And so it's either I am, I'm either always leveraging, if it's eight line to two, I'm leveraging affection, I'm leveraging love, I'm leveraging gays. I'm leveraging what I can do for you. I'm leveraging that you need me. Or it's eight line to five, or it's like I'm leveraging the fact that I'm not affected. I'm leveraging the fact that I'm so cut off. I'm leveraging the fact that I like, I don't know. I'm leveraging my ex perspective and experience. And it's like no one else can think the way that I think, or like, I don't know what it is, but there's like, there's some sort of, I'm I'm playing, I'm doing leverage all the time, and it feels like I can't, like, escape it. Yeah? And yeah, no, it's my intensity is something that smacks you. I imagine, yeah, for you having to wait, I'm energetically hitting you in the face. I imagine it feels like you are just getting, not just punched in the face. Feels like you're just getting punched in the soul, yanked out of your chair and being like, yep. Like, I'm like, Yeah, we're doing this. We're doing this. But even still, it's like people I even meet, or people I barely know, like I remember, like a month into working, like the job that I work like one of my co workers, is like, you're extremely intense, but not a bad way. That's what people pick up on me, is like, you are a very intense person. Or my friends like you, like, not my friends, like one of my workers. And of my coworkers are, like, you have a really intense stare, like, you just come off, like, super intense. I'm really high energy all the time. Like, I'll have people ask me if I'm this happy all the time, or this amped up all the time. I've had people ask me if I've been on substances completely sober, because they're like, No way are you this juiced up on like yourself or life all the time. Like, this kind of, this kind of energy feels impossible. No, it's not. Yeah, hello, I'm right here. Like, and then I remember too, like in school, like feeling frustrated at the way that other kids were dealing with problems because it was so indirected. Like, he said this and she said this, and this person saying this. No one wanted to talk to each other. And I just remember being, like, really frustrated that, like, I remember like, this other kid, like, asked me out of the blue, like, Oh, why do you like this person? I'm like, if they want to know so bad, they can ask me themselves. Or, like, constantly getting frustrated about, like, I remember in high school, like, about the guy was dating, like, when? Like, this random kids, like, Oh, why does your boyfriend wear a hat and sign? I'm, like, you can ask him. One, I'm, don't I'm not him. I don't have the answer. I'm not going to speak for him. Number two, why the do I care if he wears a hat? Chase, meanwhile, why would I care? Or, also, it's like, when my friends were fighting, I was always the mediator. I was always Kim talked to this person. Kim talked to this person. I'm like, Can you two just sit down and swatch the like, I don't understand. Like, like, why can't you just talk to each other? Like, why can't he get to the front?
Josh Lavine 32:55
Yeah, the the importance of Straight Talk to an eight and, oh yeah, you know, can you, can you talk about that you mentioned? Just, I mean, this is a theme with AIDS, is they don't like walking on eggshells, using kid gloves with people, no, and, yeah, just, what can you just say some words about that? What? Why is that so important
Kim Jansen 33:19
to you? I like, I value authenticity, honest truthfulness, wrongfulness, real, real fullness to a fault, and that might be my own naivety or my own kind of virtue of innocence, in ways like I almost expect other people to walk the same way as that, as me. So it turns I get frustrated. I should have tell people, just tell me the truth. Like you're not going to hurt me by being honest. If you tell me the truth and I respond poorly, that's on my character, not on yours. But if I find out you're pulling some sneaky and I find out, you better pray to god I don't that's less on me and that's more on you, because I gave you the I warned you up front, you better be here with me. I say this straight up, if I find out you're lying. Oh, it's going to be a bad day for you. And like, I just for me. It just nothing grinds my gears more than somebody talking around an issue. Like, if you don't want to say, like, at least for me, where I've kind of learned to compromise it, if I ask you a question about what's going on, as long as it doesn't involve me personally, if you say, Hey, I don't want to talk about it, I'll leave it alone. If it concerns me, you better sit me down and we are going to have a conversation. Um, because I think that also leads to something that Joseph was saying about my type videos like social eight is kind of seeing things as people are chess pieces. Um, and I'm now starting to understand it has taken me time, like a couple years ago, like I was explaining the kind of thought process in my sister, and she was like, that sounds really controlling. And if it were two years ago, I would have said, What do you mean? I'm not trying to control. And it's like, now I'm just like, I can understand why that approach comes off as controlling. But here's the social eight lens, or at least the lens I give. So view the chessboard as my territory. I'm if we. To the chessboard. You're never going to be quick. I'm having this board. Why the queen can move as many spaces as she wants, many directions as she wants, as long as she moves. That's my that's how I see myself. I'm expansive in all directions. That's how I see myself. And the people in my life that I care about are the more are pieces on my chessboard. So if you want to get my life and you want to be let's say you want to be one of my best friends. You and I sit down, and it's not as formally as this. We sit down say, Okay, I want to be a rook in your life. Okay, rooks move a certain way. So if I turn around and you start acting like a bishop or a knight, and you don't tell me beforehand, we're going to have a problem, because you said you're a rook, meaning you move you move up and down, you move up. You didn't tell me you were gonna go diagonal. You didn't say that. That's a bit covert. You didn't which, I don't have a problem with you wanting to move diagonally. I had a problem with you not expressing the desire that you wanted to move diagonally in the first place. So if you want to have a different sort of relationship with me, you better let me know about it. That's my problem. And it's like, it's not control that I want to have. It's autonomy. It's I want to unapologetically be myself, or I want to exist how I want to exist. And and it's and it's, if you try to change the dynamic that we have that we have. I don't know about it, it feels like you're taking away my right to exist with you.
Josh Lavine 36:25
Oh, that's interesting. I was not expecting you to go there. I was expecting you to go towards I need to know what you are. Yes, that's like that too, this sense of like, if I know what you are, like, like, imagine, I don't know like, another metaphor, just like being animals like you can be friends of the rhino, as long as you know they're a rhino. But if they're, if they present themselves as, you know, some gentle, kind of sweet peacock or something like that. And then it turns out that they're a rhino. Then you feel misled. It goes back to the judgment, self judgment. Then I eat tail and stuff if you're a wolf. And the sense of be a sheep, yeah, exactly, exactly, and so, but it's the sense of, like, I need to know what you are, yes. And I need to know fast so I can, I can size you up and assess what kind of relationship I can have with you. Yes, and one of the things that's really striking to me about that is that there is this almost ideal, or like an idealization of a certain fixedness of personhood, yes, where it's like, if I know, if I can say that you're a rook or you're a wolf or whatever, pick your metaphor, but if I know that you're this, and I can trust that you're not going to change from this, then I feel safe. I know I know how to move around you. I know what I can do with you, what I can't do with you. But at the same time, I'm sort of seeing you as a fraction of yourself, like there's a fractional way of seeing, you know, what I'm saying. And so, like, I might be a rook today, but, you know, especially as a triple attachment type in the kind of remuner store, but even just, not just as a triple, like the way that people can evolve and change, it's like I might, who knows, I might wake up and want to move diagonal tomorrow, right? And so seeing people as dynamic processes, or having more texture and complexity than just the fixed role than you've assessed originally, that becomes kind of a challenge,
Kim Jansen 38:27
right? Right? There's a flexibility, and it's something that my friends pointed out. I was like, I'm very dynamic, but I'm not very flexible in the sense that there's a lot of movement to me. But it's like, once I have it in my mind that you're a certain way, it's very hard for my brain to shift. And so it's like I often when I process people that I've had to remove from my life, it's almost like I have the process the relationship itself is like I was with two different people, the person that I knew and that I'm grieving and the person that I don't know anymore. And so it feels like again, because it's like I, I didn't know that's what it was, um, I didn't know it was like a rejection thing, um, until I saw, like, 20 seconds into one of the Courtney rejection episodes and had my world completely wrecked because I was like, Oh, wow. I did not know I was seeing people fractionally. I didn't know I was seeing people transactionally. I didn't know if I was dealing I didn't know it was a one way conversation or a one sided type of thing, like equating it to something, it's like, I started thinking about it as like, if you're playing like a fantasy RPG game, I almost like, think of like rejection types in general. But like eight specifically is like. Think of it as like, the like owner of a blacksmith, not to say that eights are NPCs in a sense that they're common, like rejection. Cores are not very common at all. Um, but it's it's not NBC and commonality. It's if we're not talking about armory or weapons or steel, what the are we talking about? If we're not talking about who we are to each other, what we give to. Each other, what we received each other, if we're not talking about how you and I exist together, or could exist together, there is no conversation as far as subconsciously like and I'm like the way that I describe. Another way I described it as like. It feels like for me with bonds. It feels like I want to be like, if it were like me trying to find the perfect dress, the perfect outfit. It feels like I want to be in the changing room as less least time as possible. As possible, because I hate trying something on and that I love and then being forced to take it off.
Josh Lavine 40:31
Okay, there's so much here I'm I'm connecting some dots between the way you describe being a starfish that can't regenerate limbs and cutting off and and the way you described it was a limb is actually a piece of your soul, some some aspect of your vulnerability, or something like that. And so you end up being this kind of, you know, three limbed formerly five, been limbed starfish that, you know those other two limbs. Well, let's say the three limbs that you got are your blacksmith, re your, I don't know chess or pick another thing, yep. And the two limbs that you cut off are, I don't know what, like some other realm of interests, or your right heart or something, but you, but you're sort of seeing yourself as this, well, fractional self, three fifths of a formerly full starfish, exactly. And in a way, projecting that, or assuming that other people are the same. Yes, it's an unconscious thing, right? It's like, but it's like, oh, you're I can, I can understand you as this role you play, or this thing you do, yes, rather than, another way to put it, actually, just, I don't know if I'm being clear at all about this, but another way to put it, I think, is that I think I see, I see rejection types as being threatened by Other people's sovereignty. Ooh, because I
Unknown Speaker 42:01
might connect something, go again. Yeah. So
Josh Lavine 42:03
like, so like, we can do all three, but just like eight wants to be sovereign, wants to have autonomy, to be as big and expansive and do basically whatever, whatever it wants, without having its life force thwarted or impeded or constrained or whatever. But, um, when it meets another sovereign entity and it doesn't know what Lane it's it's like, oh, this person is also a queen. Could move anywhere, you know, that feels threatening. You know, like they could. I'm not gonna be able to box them into or understand them as this piece that moves in, just in this way, and the other two just to fill it out with type two. It's like, I want to be able to see myself and see you in the ways that I determine from inside myself, and I give myself my own gaze, and I give you my gaze, and I'm just a gaze fountain you know, of the world, but if you have your own autonomous gaze, then you might see me in a way that I don't like. Yes, you know, and five, it's like I want to have the I want to sense, make on my own, and I want to give you my sense making. But if you can sense, make sense, make on your own, and you give it to me that I might be influenced in a way that I don't want to be influenced. And so this goes back to this whole rejection thing I want to impact, but not be impacted. Yes, you know. So okay, I know. It just said a lot of things. So what are you what are you responding to? I
Kim Jansen 43:35
love this. As soon as it was like I was processing all the cutting off analogies, it immediately hit me, the perfect one. It's like, if you know the Harry Potter movies, Horcrux, this perfect example of, Oh, that's amazing. Yes, that's correct. Every amputation is like a Horcrux. You leave half yourself behind. That's so it's like, the analogy is like, I started as like, I don't even think I started as 100 where it's you, except for part of your soul. You lose something else, you say, or something else, and you're, you're never quite reaching zero, but you'll never get to 100 where it's like, do you want to Oh, that's a that's a deep question. That's a really good question. Ideally, yes, realistically, I don't know, because it's like, if I'm 100 then it's like, great, you can affect me. And do I really? It's like, the ego is like, do I really want to be completely affected? Oh,
Josh Lavine 44:28
ideally, I just want to pause there, because that's, that's, that's a pretty amazing thing you just said, Yeah, I guess let me just wrap my head around it. It's like, you'd like to, you'd like to restore your limbs yes and be a whole person, yes. But the reason you cut those limbs off in the first place is because you noticed that they were vulnerable, or they were exposing some vulnerable. They were exposing some weakness that could be exploited or something. And so rather than. And leave it out there, exposed to continue to be exploited. He just lopped it off and said, All right, I'm just not going to be and that's part of the rejection time. It's rejecting part of myself or deeply suppressing it. So it's sort of, I suppress it out of existence, but the hint of it is still there. And it's kind of like I would love to re integrate this piece of me and to let my sensitivity be here. But in order to do that, I have to re experience, uh, or I have to reverse the the the numbing, or re experience, the sensitivity that I tried to do away with, oh yeah, like that, yeah,
Kim Jansen 45:37
yeah. That's a, that's a, yeah, no, that's which is something that I don't think a lot of people understand, and I struggle to understand it at times, because it's parts of myself where it's like, why are you like, it's also like, I always want to shake myself at times. It's like, why are you doing this? Like, it doesn't have to be so. And that's another thing I've noticed about myself, and I've heard, like, therapist and friends complain about me, and it's and it's accurate, and I'm accurate. I'm going to take it. I'm very black and white with people. Very black and white with people. You're here with me or you're not. And learning to distinguish and see people in shades of gray, I can see people like I'm very colorful as a person. I use very colorful language. I'm very colorful, very vibrant. Except relationally, that's where you kind of catch the I'm not so colorful relationally, because it's I don't see people and where they stand with me, in terms of gradients. It's you're here. I don't see you at all. It's you're my people, or you're just a face.
Josh Lavine 46:39
Yeah, yeah.
Kim Jansen 46:41
Like, it could be, it can be very jarring and extreme and like, I can admit when the like, cutting off process happens, it can jar a lot of people, because it can. I originally never thought I was an eight when I was first getting into the Enneagram, just because I read a lot of descriptions and it was like, popping off the wall and anything and everything. And I was like, I don't see myself as not to say I'm not an angry person. I'm not going to deny that. What I will say is it takes a lot for my anger to really flare up when it does, it extremely explosive. And people in the back will have to leave because everybody else will be disintegrated, um, level five evac, um, f6 for you need to create a new category of tornadoes on an f5 it's an f8 no sense of evacuating your state, like you're fucked, but like it takes so much for me to actually get there. Because I think, in a sense, that even if this does blow up, can at least be fun and entertaining. Because I think it has the seven wing. This needs to be funded. This needs to be entertaining. This needs to be something I can extrapolate humor from. So as long as I can create a joke out of experiences, it doesn't bother me as much when I can't make a laughing matter out of it. I hate it, like, I can't even make this I can't even make this fun. So if it's like, if you're going to strap a firework to me, I want to strap onto you too, and we'll go out in this, like, beautiful, colorful explosion. But if we're not blowing up together. It's like, Man, I hate that. I want
Josh Lavine 48:04
to come back to the anger thing in a second, because that's a really, I think, rich topic. But I wanted to ask, How do you square? On the one hand, the desire for straight talk, okay, you want people to be real with you. Yes. At the same time, you don't want people to control or constrain or thwart you. Yes and so. And I've heard eights say in the past that being gut checked is a form of love that they really appreciate, but at the same time it's, I don't know. I feel like there's a paradox here. Does that? Yeah, makes sense? I think it
Kim Jansen 48:46
makes sense. I think it's like trying to find the middle ground between, like, truth intact. I think has always been really hard for me. And so what I've kind of learned to find a middle ground with people is I will never apologize for being honest. I will always apologize if the way I worded myself was insulting to you, because I'm not trying to come i i don't realize I'm coming off as strong as I am. I'm going to come off strong. I will say something that upsets or offends you. Let me know I'm not trying to I'm trying to get to the truth the same as you are. Our ways, are the ways in which we're trying to get to the truth are opposite, but as long as I know that we're trying to get to the same goal, I'm willing to work with you.
Josh Lavine 49:28
Well, I guess my question is more about when people are are straight with you. I get sort of this, this whole thing about, like, oh, when you're when you're when you're sensing that someone isn't being authentic, or is obscuring something, then obviously that's a trigger, because of all the all the things we're describing, right? Like, because it's hard to know what this person is if they're obscuring themselves in some way. So I imagine once when people are straight talk, are calling you on your shit or whatever, or they're just what they're showing up in a certain way, it's like, oh, I mean, even if it stings, it's like, okay. A this person actually showed up. I know what this is, yes, you know. But I guess maybe a deeper question is, what is it? What does it mean to you when someone is real with you,
Kim Jansen 50:10
I appreciate it. Even if it hurts, I appreciate it. I'm like, You know what? This hurts, but I'd rather, I'd rather get a clean cut. Okay, thanks. It hurts, but it's clean. I know it's from you. I know what you meant by it. I respect it. It means I respect you. I may not like you, but I respect you because I think you showed up as yourself, and I may not like what that is, but you still start up as yourself, and I respect that a lot more than a wolf in sheep's clothing type of situation where it's I want you to call me out on my shit. I do. I it's hard, because what I've really struggled with is learning to take criticism and not perceiving that criticism as control. Because in the sense it's on the one hand, I want to be called out on my behavior. I don't want to be told I need to change who I am as a person, and it's learning to find the relationship between the two. And for me, that's been, really, that's been a challenge, like, I'm not gonna lie, that's been a challenge. And I've, I think I've been, yeah, in the past especially, I feel like I've interpreted a lot of helpful criticism as a challenge or a threat. Of like, Oh, you're trying to box me and you're trying to control me. You're trying to because here's the needle in a haystack. I mean, neon pink highlighter, you will miss the needle because I'm that loud, like it's just, I'm a neon pink highlighter a haystack. You're not missing me for shit. Like, you know, like you're not, you're not gonna mistake me for a corn husk. It's a neon pink highlighter that's that's just what it is. And so it's like learning to not it's hard, because I want to take what people say at face value all the time, but learning that there's a bit more nuance, and learning to ask more questions, as opposed to shooting you as soon as you call something out, and learn how to ask more questions about, okay, like, What do you mean by that? Because I may not be hearing you may be saying, or it's like something that's completely accurate, or like, in terms of, I appreciate it, especially because I can admit I'm not the most socially appropriate. In a lot of situations, I'll have people elbow me, but in the way in which they do it, what I find really helps is, hey, that's not the right story for the situation, or hey, that's maybe not the right energy to have in this context where it's okay, I'm being told like, I'm being controlled in that sense, because you're not telling me to never be that way. You're not telling me to not show up as myself. It's Hey, you're at like, a 55 I'm not telling you to I'm not telling you to be a zero. I'm not trying to tell you to be where I am. But like, this is not the right situation for this conversation. This is not the right setting for the story. You can tell me the story in the car. We can talk about it later. We can like, like, like, things like that are very helpful for me, because it's okay. You're not viewing me as the problem, or you're not viewing like me exist like, you're not viewing my existence as a problem. You're not viewing me is who I am as a problem, like I'm not, because what ends up happening a lot of time is I think I internalize criticism, or any sort of critique of my character or my existence as a burden, whereas, like, Oh,
Josh Lavine 53:17
I'm now a burden man to or an obligation or, or you're only
Kim Jansen 53:21
around me because of whatever else like or like a tendency of like, you're only around me because I can give you this, this or that. Or it's like, like, I have a real sensitivity to like, when my usefulness to somebody runs out, like, I, I never knew what that was. And then, like, yeah, people don't. People don't see that. A lot of people, that's not the first thing you're getting hit with. With a lot of people you'll find out about the down the line, but that's not what people are, you know, coming at you out the gate. And so it's like, you know, I've really had to learn to balance, you know,
Josh Lavine 54:01
yeah, like learning
Kim Jansen 54:03
to take criticism. Criticism is not control.
Josh Lavine 54:07
There's some eight line to two there as well, just the, I guess it's a universal rejection theme, what you said. But when your usefulness runs out, the sense of, I am, my usefulness at least as far as it goes in relationship, yes, you know you value me because of what I offer. Yes, as a rejection, you
Kim Jansen 54:26
value what I am not who I am. And that is something I yeah, that's something I felt most of my life. Uh huh,
Josh Lavine 54:35
subconsciously, you're so good at these like little, pithy, succinct statements, I you value what I am, not who I am, and that's it strikes me that what I am is the the things that are produced by the three limbs of the starfish. But who I am is really the whole
Kim Jansen 54:53
you don't care about the starfish. You care about my limbs. You want to you want to hold my hand. You don't. Want to Hold me because you like, what my hand has. You want my hand. You don't want me. And so it's like, in terms of, like, something that I've been really processing, in terms of, like people recently, like, I discover things about myself all the time, which I find really interesting is, like, the tale of Hades and Persephone. I feel like I'm everybody's Hades a good shocker, eight describing themselves as the bad guy pretends to be shot. Drop a meme here. But like, I don't mean hades in the sense I'm like, kidnapping children and, like, subjugating them into marriage. It's not that sort of thing. But I the way Hades is it's like, at least to me, it's like, I feel like I provide people a gateway to show every part of themselves that they've either been pressured to hide, forced themselves to box in from never felt comfortable exploring, and so it's like, I'm like, no, no, show me that. No, go ahead. I gotta take it. I got you. And then when that kind of experience runs out, it's like they're not seeing, hey, there's a person behind that they, they're seeing me as an experience, not as a human being. Yes, I see because I sell myself as an experience and not as a human being. So I kind of do it to myself.
Josh Lavine 56:10
It's this. It's the self fulfilling prophecy of all the real Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's fascinating to hear you talk about this. Because, I mean, I do, I do really hear a lot of the eight lines of two there, but, but again, it is happening at this body level. It's like, I am my the way that I galvanize you, the way that I hold you, the holding environment I create for you, for you to feel, you know, all this kind of and social as well as in there, yeah, oh yeah, oh yeah. They make that social role I am in relation to you. That's what you value me for. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Kim Jansen 56:42
It's a very distinct energy. It's, it's very you walk in a room, it's funny, just because, like, even, like, other discord servers, like, not even just the EU one, like, everyone be like, oh, is Kim here? Oh, yeah, we can feel her like, Oh, I knew Kevin's in here because I could hear her talking. They're just like, you, like, I've been told before. Like, even in digital spaces, like, you have a very powerful presence. You feel me enter a room, you feel it. You know it. I don't even have to talk. You Hear Me Before You see me. That's what it is.
Josh Lavine 57:13
I want to talk about anger for a second because I laughed out loud when you said, Okay, you wrote in your survey before this two things, first of all, your letter that you wrote to your dad when you were a kid, I believe it said, Hi, Dad, I'm angry. Love Kim. You wrote this on a letter. How old were you?
Kim Jansen 57:40
I didn't write this on a letter. I was, I think, around like I had to have been at most nine or 10 years old. It wasn't a letter. It was inside a kitchen cabinet that I wrote in pen. I remember writing this, but we were going to leave like we were. I discovered it about five years ago when we were moving to a new house. I opened the drawer, and I just see two Dad, I'm angry. Love him with the heart next to it, and then, like some other like angry symbols, I'm like, what was I even trying to there's that. There's the time I don't remember this happening, but my dad and I apparently got in some sort of fight. And then when he was marching downstairs to talk to me, my sister started singing the Imperial March for Star Wars. If you have to have the Darth Vader theme song sung around you before a lecture, you know you're dealing with an eight there's just the Imperial March is not song about any other type of child. Um, like that. Yeah, I don't even remember what I was angry about. I just know I was mad, just because, there you go, it's like, I have to physically demonstrate. I don't know. I can't explain that story, other than just I was feeling upset, and I needed a way to show it. And I don't know if I felt like I showed it enough, so I had to write it in a drawer. But also include that I love you, even though I'm mad,
Josh Lavine 58:58
I haven't thought about it. I guess it's, it's, I want to unpack this stereotype about eights being angry, yes, and I think that you've done a good job talking about, let's see how, like, just the how the inner experience of eight is not textured as much by quote, unquote anger as much by what, numbness and a sense of, I don't know, hyper practicality or functionality, or something like, or this efficiency, like, yeah, I don't know, yeah,
Kim Jansen 59:38
Like, exertion efficiency, but it's like, physical efficiency. It's not like, I don't, I think, yeah, kind of articulate it well,
Josh Lavine 59:48
I guess, like the traditional fixation for eight is, or, I guess the resale Hudson one is objectification, and what it's pointing to is this sense of cutting off, of seeing myself. Was fractional, seeing other people as fractional, kind of, we are blocks moving in space, and we exchange kind of this transactional energy that's kind of more than anger. That's kind of the inner experience of it. Yeah, I hear you describing I feel like
Kim Jansen 1:00:13
with a anger, I feel like people see the end product more than everything else behind it. I feel I felt that way most of my life. Everybody sees the anger. They never see what's behind it. They don't see the layers that are behind it. They think an eight. Anger is like, okay, eight, oh my god, I'm gonna use like, a fucking truck analogy. Eight. Anger is like, onion. It has many layers. It's not just anger. Anger is just the shell of the onion. And that's all people want to see. And it's really frustrating like, hear all, like, not just narratives and like Enneagram literature, but like, in my actual life, that people all, they're just like, Oh, she got mad for no reason. It's like, no, no, no, no. If you think anger, like people like, no, anger is what it's exerted as, it's what it's shown as, because it's visceral, it's aggressive, it's outer. That's not what's going on internally at all? It's it anger is how every other thing I'm feeling if is best expressed, but that is not, there's so many things behind that that you're not paying attention, and I'm not the kind of person that gets mad over nothing. You have to push me. You really have to push but it's, again, even my analogies and my metaphors are describing things being forced, moved, impacted, like you really have to push me beyond a certain point where I'm like, All right, fuck you. Gloves are off. You're in the corner. And it's like, yeah, no, um, my relationship to anger. It's like, I don't I'd say I have more entertaining frustration as opposed to legitimate anger, when I do reach that point, most of the time, well deserved.
Josh Lavine 1:01:51
It actually strikes me that anger. Like to get angry, you have to, in a certain way, admit that you're sensitive about something, yes, and so there's an inherent kind of contradiction in a around anger. Because, oh, I
Kim Jansen 1:02:07
care. I care if I buy you to get angry. I straight up telling somebody I dated. It was very early in our relationship, and I remember the conflict happened because they avoided telling me something. And it was like, Okay, how long? Because I was like, how long you've been feeling this way? And they're like, six weeks. And like, six weeks. And like, why the didn't you tell me six weeks ago? And I started getting irritated. They're like, Well, I knew you'd respond this way. I'm like, no, no, I'm responding this way because you didn't say something, not because you did. And the one thing I remember the conversation that really hit me was I straight up told him you should fear my silence more than my rage, because it means I don't care about you anymore. You should fear that's the cut off, yeah, yeah. When I'm indifferent, when I'm quiet, you should be fucking terrified. You should you should be scared. When I'm mad, that means you, I care about you. That means I I care enough about you, in the sense I want to work together. I so I still want to when I'm angry, it means I'm still in it. When I'm not angry anymore, I'm gone,
Josh Lavine 1:03:00
yeah, I want to, well, I guess, in a way, what you're saying is anger is a, is a. I don't know if this is exactly the right way to put it, but it's actually a form of connection, or a bid for connection, right? It's a, it's a, yeah, I guess. I mean, the thing about eight is that it's my experience of eight, or what I hear eights reporting is that they don't abide in a state of anger. But, you know, they are the type that is going to be the most assertive about restoring a boundary that has been crossed, you know, and be like, that's when they get angry. It's right. They're like, kind of chill until the boundary gets crossed, and then they're like, whoa, fuck you. And then here's the boundary, yeah? And as long as you can respect the boundary, then we're good again. Yeah, exactly. Um, yeah,
Kim Jansen 1:03:45
no, I make it very clear, don't cross here, don't step here. You know, do do those things. We're never going to have a problem. We're going to you're never going to know. And that's the thing that's like, my reactions, especially in school, were very surprising to people. When I would finally get mad because they'd be like, where? Wow, wow, bring me in a group punishment situation in school. Oh, yeah, I was not scared to challenge a teacher if it needed, because I'm like, Why? Why are you subjugating me to something that I should not even be a part of? I want
Josh Lavine 1:04:18
to unpack this word anger a little more because, I guess I just want to contextualize it a little bit in the body center stuff. Because it's almost like I want to, like, settle the score like this, the word anger gets thrown around so often with respect to the body types, and I feel like it's misunderstood, yes, and so the sense of, at least my understanding of it, the way I conceive of it, is that the rage of the body center is really just rage at like being alive requires that you bump up, bump up against constraints, yes, and other energies that will exert some kind of limiting effect on your life force, correct? Right? And you're also bombarded by things that can potentially cause you bad sensation or threat, the threat of violation and just to live, literally, the conditions of being the condition of being alive, yes, means that you're going to get harassed by life. Yes. And so rage is like an a constant underlying simmer of like not wanting to be harassed, not wanting to be bothered. Yes. And the eight kind of strategy for managing that is to set a boundary and kind of set up its Garden of Eden, or its chessboard, if you will, in such a way that what is in my garden of Eden will not pose a threat to me. And so I let I'm very clear about garden, the fence, what I let in the fence is not a threat everything out there. I don't give a about
Kim Jansen 1:05:42
I idealize what's I idealize what's in the fence. I dramaticize What's not,
Josh Lavine 1:05:48
yeah, right, right.
Kim Jansen 1:05:51
And so I'm delusional on both ends, because I'm not seeing either realistically. I idealize what's in the fence because I'm not seeing clearly I could get hurt by the people I put inside. I'm not seeing people outside the fence clearly, because I'm already consciously assuming there's a threat there when it's like, hey, yes, that person enough. Why are you puffing your chest out like that?
Josh Lavine 1:06:21
Wow. Yeah, I love that. Just what you said there the kind of, the delusion of, there's a delusion happening both inside and outside the fence. Yeah, it's really good.
Kim Jansen 1:06:32
Yes, the fence itself is a delusion, like you cannot protect yourself from, right? That's right, that's right, that's right. I think what like, it's really funny seeing these cartoonist descriptions of eights, it's like you do have no idea how delusional we are, not just other people. You know how delusional to ourselves we are.
Josh Lavine 1:06:54
I can't think of a better way to ask this question than what's what's hard about trusting that you have the strength or capacity or toughness or whatever to live life without offense?
Kim Jansen 1:07:17
Wow, that's indeed. I don't think I've been asked that question before. Wow, that's That's deep. I think this might be the slowest you'll ever hear me talk through all this entire thing.
Josh Lavine 1:07:27
Take your time, which
Kim Jansen 1:07:29
isn't gonna be much, um, because I feel like I internally live like I feel like my life clock feels like, back to the fucking chess analogy, where it's like one of those time stoppers, where it's just both people going, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, where you're moving constantly, but like, what is it like to live life without offense? It's almost unimaginable. Because I feel like, even if there's not a physical fence, I feel like there's still a mental fence, an emotional fence, a I feel like, God, that's tough. I wish I could live life without offense. That's that would be incredible. That would be incredible. I would just love to step in the shoes of somebody that's not living their life constantly having offense or constantly having their hand up or checking, feeling that they need to check everybody. Um, that sounds freeing, in a way that I that sounds idealistic to achieve. I will I. My hope is I one day we'll get there. I don't feel like I'm going to get there today or tomorrow. I feel like I'm starting to work my way towards there with like my friends and family now, I think are starting to see it a little bit, um, but even still, I feel like at the best I'll get is having an electric fence where it's not super visible, you're still going to get shocked. I feel like the best I'll get is some like invisible electric fence. I feel like the fence is always going to be there. And I hate saying that. It hurts to say that, because it's a crush of the ego, because, again, it's now saying there is something that you can't conquer, and you're supposed to be incomparable, and you're now faced with something that you're never quite going to conquer, and it's like, Oh, I hate that. I hate that. Like, you're challenging my ego, but I love it. You're making me think things about myself. And I love that. Like, go, like, I like these types of questions. Like, good challenge me here. Like, because you're making me realize something about my own ego that I hadn't even considered is like, what is life without offense? And to me, it's almost like, what there isn't life without offense, or the best I'll get is an invisible fence. And it's like, okay, well, why do you have to have a fence? And it's because I can't feel like I'm defenseless without it, because I feel like people because, because it's like, at least I'll it will soften the blows I take in life, if I have a fence,
Josh Lavine 1:09:48
yeah, it's, it's actually, it's this is to me, this is showing eight going to five in a in a new way, because it's like, the the five thing is this feeling of. Of like an insufficiency of self to handle the world, yeah, you know, without my mental retraction or whatever. And so that sense of the fence provides a sense of, Well, security, I guess. Put a cliche, but yeah, it's something about that that was, I um, and I'll, actually, I'll speak on the other side of my mouth for a second. I'm actually not sure that the ideal is to live without a fence, because I think it's, you know, it's healthy to have boundaries. But I guess the the spirit of the question is like, what would it be like to have the self trust that as you move through the world, rather than having a fence that's some radius out away from you, that's protecting you so that every step you walk is safe, that just the trust that whatever you encounter, you'll be able to meet that with the appropriate amount of life force to protect yourself
Kim Jansen 1:10:56
if you need to. I really like that question. Yeah. I really like that question either way. Yeah, no, because it's, it's something that I I really like this question, because it like, it brings up the relationship with AIDS and boundaries is I feel like at times, eights over, do their boundaries like to the point where they don't make it clear what their boundaries are to other people? It's at times, it can feel like, I make it clear in one way, but there's other ways, where it's like, hey, where it's like, sometimes I don't know you've stepped a place that I didn't like, because I'm not aware of what I'm especially if it's an emotional wound, yeah, I'm not aware it's something I You weren't supposed to step on until I felt affected, which I'm not supposed to be affected, and then I catch what I need for Something that I never knew was a problem, which shouldn't be your fault anyway, because you never knew like, like, I feel like I've trusted myself more than I've had and I think part of that is like learning that I'm not alone in that, that I don't have to take on things by myself, and I'm still learning I can ask for help. That's, that's something that's, I feel like is going to be an issue, that's a lifelong problem. I've already accepted that, like, that's probably gonna be lifelong problem. I'm not, I'm only digging one heel in the dirt instead of two. Now I've like learning to, like lead on and, you know, trust other people, and, like, also, and it's like, I can, like, learning to check with, check myself at times too, being like, Hey, were you seeing that appropriately? Were you navigating? Because, like, a lot of times it's like, okay, I'm not as delusional gut jumping as I used to be. This. So happens. But like, yeah, no, it's it's hard to answer. I feel like I have a better answer to your question the more I sit with it and the more I kind of see it play out real time, because it's something that I haven't checked. Yeah,
Josh Lavine 1:12:55
yeah. Makes sense. Makes sense. Interesting as
Unknown Speaker 1:12:58
of now, that's my answer, but my answer will probably change,
Josh Lavine 1:13:03
yeah, yeah. I want to ask generally, what we is there anything else about eight that we haven't talked about? And then I have other questions about your forensic stuff, and then we'll come to a close. I remember,
Kim Jansen 1:13:19
I know you mentioned earlier, it was like the other two specific stories you wanted to mention. Wanted to mention about my anger. I think one of them was the letter in the desk. The other one was my apology note saying I wasn't Yes. That one, yes, yes, yes. That is innate story. Let me tell you seriously. Like, back to the unapologetic resistance thing. So it's like, again, I don't like being subjugated to something that I don't think serious. Because here's the thing you approached me, at least at this point in my life, saying, hey, here. You fucked up. Okay, I did. You're right. I did, too. Let's talk about it. But if, like, growing up, if you were going to try, like, the punishment, because, again, like as a kid, I was, admit, I was a little shit. I dealt with anger, very physically, very viscerally. I was the type of person during punishments that would laugh at you, would I would taunt you. I didn't care if you were an adult. I'd say, you're not disciplining me hard enough. I don't care. Um, but I remember specifically sixth grade, I'm sitting in class mind my own business. Most of class being annoying. Teacher, different teacher, different room comes in. Complains are all being loud, so my teacher decides to force everybody to write an apology note, not singling out specific people who are disruptive, not singling out people who were disruptive. Just across the board, everyone has to apologize. And I didn't know this was innate thing. I'm like, Absolutely not. I don't see the point in this. So I remember writing like, What are you sorry for? I'm sorry for sitting at my desk, minding my own business, doing what I was supposed to do. And it's like, what are you going to choose? Change your behavior? Absolutely nothing. And then it was like any other note you have to add. I'm like, I'm view this as a complete waste of time, because I should not be apologizing something that I didn't do. Turn in that note to that person. Um, so I didn't see the reaction reading it, but. I can imagine look on her face when she was going through the letter saying, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, sorry, sorry, I'm not sorry. I'm apologizing. I'm not sorry. And I was crossing because a couple of my friends were in that class too, were walking out. They're like, Man, I felt so bad. I wrote this. I'm like. I wrote, I wasn't sorry. They're like, You did what? Like, yeah, I wrote, I wasn't sorry that. Why'd you do that? Like, I did nothing wrong. If I was loud and disruptive, I'd owned it. I would have asked for her look her in the eye and say it.
Josh Lavine 1:15:30
What would it have meant to you if you had written you were sorry, nothing. Let me say that differently, like, like, what? What would you have had to betray in yourself? My truth, your truth? Yeah, I guess I bring that I asked the question in that way, because I, I think let's see how to put this. Eights have a kind of like congruence with a certain inner integrity. Yes, often, yeah,
Unknown Speaker 1:16:00
no, that would have been good.
Josh Lavine 1:16:03
Yeah, exactly, exactly. I wasn't caring
Kim Jansen 1:16:05
about yours in that moment. If yours and mine were congruent, then I care they're not congruent, and in that moment, actually, no, not in that moment. That's bullshit a lot of the time, almost all the time, my integrity is most important. What's most important? And so if I were to say I'm sorry, it would come from an insincere place to me, because it's like, wait a minute, why am I saying sorry? I was quiet. I'm going to spell out that I'm not sorry because I'm being forced to do this. I feel bad that other I'm going to acknowledge that I feel bad that you are disruptive, but I'm also going to outline that I don't see the point of me personally apologizing to you, because I personally was not disruptive. That's the problem I had where it's like I have no problem acknowledging that there is a disturbance. I have a problem with you subject, because I think this is what it is in my 12 year old brain I was interpreting as you are subjugating me to to do something that I didn't do. Yeah? Forced me to do something. Yeah, of course we did do something I didn't do, but I did it. I would have, I would have owned it. If I'm a dick, I'll tell you, yeah, no, I did that. And I'll probably follow that up with, Oh, I do it again. Yeah, I said that, yeah, I did that, and I do it again. Probably not afraid to own my own darkness at all. I don't like it forced on me when it's not there, where it's like, I can be completely ruthless when I'm really mad. I can be ruthless. I can say things with absolute brutality and conviction, and I will mean it. I won't, I won't like it's to the point where it's like, when I feel mad, I don't recognize how far in I am in the anger until I'm not even in the red. I'm in the burgundy. I'm in that deep, real deep red where it's like, no, there's no talking me out of this. There's no getting me out of this. I just need to explode. And if you are going to get in the way of me kind of exploding, it's like, no, at least for me, it's like the way that I kind of see, like my anger, it's, it's very much I like to deal with it very quickly. It's, yeah, it's a flash and it's gone. So it's like, it's not this 10 year slow building kind of plan, and I'm like, pulling the strings. It's not this covert, no, I'm gonna grab you down the throat, not even to take you in an alley, shoot 1000 bullets in your brain, walk out. That's it. And I'm gonna leave you to leave you to the point where I can't even you're not, it's not going to be recognizable who and what you were to me done double that fast. And there's
Josh Lavine 1:18:29
that, that quality with like, when, when all the body types kind of reach that point. It feels like the anger justifies itself. Yes, the means, yeah, yeah. And I guess that's where that quality of like, remorselessness comes with the eight twos. Do you have any words about that? Like, what is that?
Kim Jansen 1:18:50
What is that? No, no, I Yeah. I can come off like, yeah, no. There's times where I if I really feel justified in the reaction that I have, there is no remorse. There
Josh Lavine 1:18:59
is right, right? That's right. There is yes, yeah,
Kim Jansen 1:19:02
even when there is remorse, it's it's more so. But my approach was justifiable, because my truth isn't being compromised words, it's there. It is remorseless, but it's like no, no, right? This is my truth. This is the because my truth is the truth. Yeah, a boundary was crossed. That's the truth. And it's like, if there, if it's intentional, it's like, okay, no, you're kicked out. You're not, like, you're nothing, you're not and like, that's a lie, because it's like, for you to be that angry, it meant everything. It was everything. And it's like again, seeing seeing people in the world, seeing people inside the like seeing people in and out of the fence is extremes, seeing the fence itself as an extreme, where it's like, you idealize the people in, you tend to demonize the people out. And so it's like when the. Deal is kind of shattered. You're going to destroy anything, including yourself, because it's again, back to the I'm the one that let them in self guilt. You drown yourself, yeah, and you drown yourself. How you numb yourself out, you take your aggression out on other people.
Josh Lavine 1:20:19
Yeah, that makes sense, because you wish
Kim Jansen 1:20:21
you, because you wish you could punish yourself, because nothing in this world that you could do could ever, you could never punish yourself enough. There's nothing in this world that you could do to yourself to ever punish yourself enough. You just lost a part of your innocence. There's no going back from that. And it's like, even not to the extreme of like, but even still, it's like, at times, it's like, I can't listen to certain songs anymore, I can't play certain games, I can't enjoy certain activities. I can't listen to the music because it's like, no, that's that's a part of your life that you can't have anymore. And it's when that amputation process happens. It's not like people think that, people misinterpret as like, oh, like, you could cut people off in a whim. It's like, yeah, you can. But it doesn't take away the emotion behind it. It's this. It's not that I don't care. It's i It's the feeling cannot does not outweigh the what I have to do. And it's I care about you. I cannot care about you anymore, and that the I cannot feel this way outweighs what I'm actually experiencing internally. That's an inner conflict that I don't think people realize that it's a I care about, I want to care about you. I want to say, and it's like, no, no, you can't. You can't. You can't care. You can't love anymore. You can't feel this way anymore. You're not allowed anymore. They cross the line. You can't a boundary squash. You can't feel this way
Josh Lavine 1:21:35
anymore. Yes, yeah. Man, that was very that was well, well articulated and very vivid. Thank you.
So from a place of cutting off and cutting off the part of yourself that cares or that has that sensitivity, that kind of your heart, how does that get recovered? Do you have a sense? And actually, I don't know if this relates, but the question kind of in my head, as you were talking about, was like, what's going in the opposite direction? Like, we sort of just descended the staircase into the eight darkness, but like, back up to the eight virtue or essence or light, if you will. What's the sacred thing?
Kim Jansen 1:22:29
Jeez, that's a that's a lot of that's a big question. Um, I still feel like I'm ascending the staircase as of now. I don't feel like I've fully seen the light yet. I'm not in as dark as a place as I was. I feel like it was not something a staircase. I think part of it is it's easier telling yourself this, and it is accepting this. How people behave is not in your control. If someone decides to go against what you know, the mass. That's not your fault. You can't control that. If someone wants to move diagonally and you discuss them not doing so and they do that, that says more about them than it does about you. You can't control that. You You can't. You couldn't. There's nothing in there. Sometimes it really comes a point where it's like, you could have other absent other than mind reading. You couldn't have known that's how it was going to go out. You could have known that, like some things, yes, it really was. You like being idealistic. Other times it's like, no, no, you found out who someone really was, and that's just as important. Like, like, that's a lesson in and of itself. And you can now surround yourself with people who really do get you and you do understand you. And it's like the friends that I have in my life now, it's like, I've never felt they've never once made me feel like I need to apologize for existing as I do, which is huge for me. I'm like, I don't have to cover things up. I don't have to word myself super delicately, like you understand that I'm going to unintentionally say things positive, entertaining or brutally that are jarring? Yeah, as long as you don't question where that place is, where, what kind of place it's coming from, we're fine. Um, I think trying to understand that just because somebody betrayed you does not mean you betrayed yourself, that that's been the big because it feels like it's like I I betray myself. I betray my own judgment. I betrayed my own the way be, the way I see reality is completely distorted, which, like spoiler it is. But that's the case with everybody. Um, like everybody has their own. Subjective kind of viewpoint of the world. It's kind of
Josh Lavine 1:25:05
like, like being merciful with yourself, yes, forgiving yourself for your naivete in a certain way, which I which ironically, actually gets you back in touch with that innocence, yes and aliveness, yes And so, yeah, yeah, the cycle of life and
Unknown Speaker 1:25:22
death is never lost on on eight.
Josh Lavine 1:25:28
Well, speaking of endings, we should close, and I know you gotta go, Yeah, but no, this has been really, really great. Your facility with with language and metaphor and imagery is so like, it's just so good, and you're so such a fountain, you know, of life force and and really, I'm just really blown away by your insightfulness about yourself. So it's, it's cool to talk to you and just hear you articulate your inner perspective, because there's such high resolution in it. I find myself really impressed, because I know you're relatively new to the Enneagram, but you have, you really have a grasp of it. So thanks for the conversation. You're welcome anytime. Thank you for tuning in to my conversation with Kim. If you liked this conversation, then please click the like button or hit subscribe if you're on YouTube or if you're listening to this as a podcast. And you can leave up to a five star review, and you can also leave some comments if you're on Apple or Spotify. These are zero cost and very effective ways to support me and the show and the work that we do at The Enneagram School. And if you'd like to learn more about what we do at The Enneagram School, then go check us out at the Enneagram school.com. There is a full list of all the previous interviews that we've done. They come out every other week or so. And there's also an intro course that I recommend you check out that I plugged at the beginning of this episode. It's a great place to start if you're a beginner or if you're an advanced student. It's a great place to go see how all of the primary concepts of the Enneagram weave together into a coherent framework. If you think that you would be a good candidate to be interviewed on the show, then I'd love to hear from you. You can go to the Enneagram school.com and fill out the contact form. And preference goes to people who have been officially typed by the typing [email protected] in my view, the typing [email protected] is the world's most accurate, most precise Enneagram typing team. And you can go check out their typing services at their website enneagrammer.com you can also see them type celebrities in real time through their membership service. Okay, that's it for me. Thank you very much for tuning in, and I'll see you next time you.
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